Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Epsilon,

How Greek we are is beyond dispute and I am often surprised by people who try to invent new ethnicities to evade a non existent obstacle! The same goes for how Turkish the Turkish Cypriots are. The status is not the problem, at least for some of us.

I agree with you 100 per cent on the nature of a democratic state. What absorbs a lot of my thinking, like most Cypriots, is how to achieve such a democratic and European way of being yet give the Turkish Cypriots the security guarantees that they need at this point in time. It may be that in the future they will feel secure enough not to need guarantees in a fully democratic state. And all this without resorting to a solution that is partition in disguise and eventual take over of the whole island by Turkey.

When I read posts here and elsewhere I want to see how others have thought along the lines of balancing the desires of democracy with intercommunal security. So far there has been no proposal that satsifes all. And a somewhat funny thought comes to mind- a top management guy, Townsend, wrote how he held top level meetings in a conference room with no chairs. Having the "decision makers" standing while negotiating or presenting ideas sped up the process a lot, he said. Sometimes these simple things seem to have value! Reading this I recalled how Raud Denktash had very comfortable chairs in his office for his UN visitors!

[EPSILON]

Epsilon,

How Greek we are is beyond dispute and I am often surprised by people who try to invent new ethnicities to evade a non existent obstacle! The same goes for how Turkish the Turkish Cypriots are. The status is not the problem, at least for some of us.

I agree with you 100 per cent on the nature of a democratic state. What absorbs a lot of my thinking, like most Cypriots, is how to achieve such a democratic and European way of being yet give the Turkish Cypriots the security guarantees that they need at this point in time. It may be that in the future they will feel secure enough not to need guarantees in a fully democratic state. And all this without resorting to a solution that is partition in disguise and eventual take over of the whole island by Turkey.

When I read posts here and elsewhere I want to see how others have thought along the lines of balancing the desires of democracy with intercommunal security. So far there has been no proposal that satsifes all. And a somewhat funny thought comes to mind- a top management guy, Townsend, wrote how he held top level meetings in a conference room with no chairs. Having the "decision makers" standing while negotiating or presenting ideas sped up the process a lot, he said. Sometimes these simple things seem to have value! Reading this I recalled how Raud Denktash had very comfortable chairs in his office for his UN visitors!

We will never convist Tcs that we secure or guarantee their rights by changing our Nationality. This will result our colapse as sosiety and will add nothing to Tcs Safety or rights.

[EPSILON]

Epsilon,

How Greek we are is beyond dispute and I am often surprised by people who try to invent new ethnicities to evade a non existent obstacle! The same goes for how Turkish the Turkish Cypriots are. The status is not the problem, at least for some of us.

I agree with you 100 per cent on the nature of a democratic state. What absorbs a lot of my thinking, like most Cypriots, is how to achieve such a democratic and European way of being yet give the Turkish Cypriots the security guarantees that they need at this point in time. It may be that in the future they will feel secure enough not to need guarantees in a fully democratic state. And all this without resorting to a solution that is partition in disguise and eventual take over of the whole island by Turkey.

When I read posts here and elsewhere I want to see how others have thought along the lines of balancing the desires of democracy with intercommunal security. So far there has been no proposal that satsifes all. And a somewhat funny thought comes to mind- a top management guy, Townsend, wrote how he held top level meetings in a conference room with no chairs. Having the "decision makers" standing while negotiating or presenting ideas sped up the process a lot, he said. Sometimes these simple things seem to have value! Reading this I recalled how Raud Denktash had very comfortable chairs in his office for his UN visitors!

We will never convist Tcs that we secure or guarantee their rights by changing our Nationality. This will result our colapse as sosiety and will add nothing to Tcs Safety or rights.

pls read the last line as follows: .. and will add nothing to the target wich is the solution on Cyprus problem

[Bananiot]

Nikitas, you have made some valid points, in my opinion, especially regarding your analysis of how we viewed the 1960 agreements. However, I note some unrealistic approaches you have suggested as to how we should have gone about our business then and how we should be behaving now, regarding the kind of solution that we should be seeking. Here is one example:

... and we had developed a strong army capable of defending our territory, with indigenous Cypriot officers sworn to defend the Cyprus constitution and the state ...

How strong an army Nikitas and what principles would it defend? We were asking for enosis back then, even before the ink had time to dry on the agreements we signed. The Turkish Cypriot extremists were rubbing their hands with joy at our "patriotic" rhetorics that were soon going to be efforts pressed home by the heavy hand of the stronger community. Nikitas, it is a folly to believe that we can take care of our business with a strong army. This argument does not stand to reason. All we needed back then and more so today, is realistic politicians with down to earth attitude who could foresee the dangers of a policy that was asking for maximum gains, irrespective of the wishes of the partner community. Even the most moderate forces in the Turkish Cypriot community back then (which were the majority) could not accept and go along with our so called perpetual dream of enosis. Even the many Turkish Cypriot members of AKEL and its Trade Union PEO, refused to go along with AKEL after it threw its weight behind Makarios and called for "enosis and only enosis". The vast majority of them left AKEL and PEO and sought cover in the warm embrace of TMT, unfortunately, because we scared them off. We, my friend, would have done the same thing, had things worked the other way round.

The other thing that bothers me is that so many people cannot see that the options we are faced with today are merely a result of what has happened over the last 40 years or so. Before 1974 we could never agree on a federation and we even rejected a functional form of federation which today we would agree to at a spur of the moment. This option is not possible, however, after the events of 1974. This is life. This is how the real world functions, not on dreams no matter how nice they are. It is a waste of time to argue about a unified Cyprus. We all like it but we cannot have it. If we go after it there will be more tears to be shed and this will happen too if we go after any form of unrealistic solution or decide (like many have done) that the situation is okay if it stays as it is.

[denizaksulu]

Epsilon,

How Greek we are is beyond dispute and I am often surprised by people who try to invent new ethnicities to evade a non existent obstacle! The same goes for how Turkish the Turkish Cypriots are. The status is not the problem, at least for some of us.

I agree with you 100 per cent on the nature of a democratic state. What absorbs a lot of my thinking, like most Cypriots, is how to achieve such a democratic and European way of being yet give the Turkish Cypriots the security guarantees that they need at this point in time. It may be that in the future they will feel secure enough not to need guarantees in a fully democratic state. And all this without resorting to a solution that is partition in disguise and eventual take over of the whole island by Turkey.

When I read posts here and elsewhere I want to see how others have thought along the lines of balancing the desires of democracy with intercommunal security. So far there has been no proposal that satsifes all. And a somewhat funny thought comes to mind- a top management guy, Townsend, wrote how he held top level meetings in a conference room with no chairs. Having the "decision makers" standing while negotiating or presenting ideas sped up the process a lot, he said. Sometimes these simple things seem to have value! Reading this I recalled how Raud Denktash had very comfortable chairs in his office for his UN visitors!

[denizaksulu]

Epsilon,

How Greek we are is beyond dispute and I am often surprised by people who try to invent new ethnicities to evade a non existent obstacle! The same goes for how Turkish the Turkish Cypriots are. The status is not the problem, at least for some of us.

I agree with you 100 per cent on the nature of a democratic state. What absorbs a lot of my thinking, like most Cypriots, is how to achieve such a democratic and European way of being yet give the Turkish Cypriots the security guarantees that they need at this point in time. It may be that in the future they will feel secure enough not to need guarantees in a fully democratic state. And all this without resorting to a solution that is partition in disguise and eventual take over of the whole island by Turkey.

When I read posts here and elsewhere I want to see how others have thought along the lines of balancing the desires of democracy with intercommunal security. So far there has been no proposal that satsifes all. And a somewhat funny thought comes to mind- a top management guy, Townsend, wrote how he held top level meetings in a conference room with no chairs. Having the "decision makers" standing while negotiating or presenting ideas sped up the process a lot, he said. Sometimes these simple things seem to have value! Reading this I recalled how Raud Denktash had very comfortable chairs in his office for his UN visitors!

We will never convist Tcs that we secure or guarantee their rights by changing our Nationality. This will result our colapse as sosiety and will add nothing to Tcs Safety or rights.

pls read the last line as follows: .. and will add nothing to the target wich is the solution on Cyprus problem

A bit pessimistic I think. Changing nationality/ Calling yourself a Cypriot is not changing your nationality. It does not change who you are. The TCs might fear that more than yourselves.

[Nikitas]

Bananiot,

In an interview on Greek TV, judge Michalis Dekleris, adviser to our side in the intercommunal talks of the 60s and early 70s said that we came very close to a deal. He cites a celebration in 1973 in honor of that solution to be, in which he says, both Messrs Clerides and Denktash indulged in a bout of heavy wine drinking to celebrate the deal. The deal was the functional federation you are referring to, with separate municipalities etc.

1973 was the year that the "realist" dictator Papadopoulos was dethroned by the maniac Ioannides. To this day we do not know what was promised and by whome to Ioannides to overthrow Makarios and trash the deal of 1973 andthe result is that we are faced with the prospect of Federation with territorial division.

The question that bothers me is now, even with a federation, can we take the state which will result seriously? At this point I tend to think that the Greek Cypriot side, because it has gone through a process of maturation through disaster (our misakes of the past and their consequences that you point out) is more sincere than the Turkish side.

The maturity in political life in Cyprus compared to Greece is obvious, even to the casual observer. As is the European orientation of the Republic compared to Turkey. So the question is what is the other side's attitude to the proposed federation? A genuine desire to make it work or use it as a stepping stone to a "final solution"? On this point we deserve some solid proof. And so far it is not forthcoming. So the mistakes of the past did lead us here, but it seems that the mistakes of the other side have not had any effects on them, perhaps because the disaster for them, the slow disappearance of the Turkish Cypriots in the north, is gradual and ongoing. I hope I am wrong if anyone can convince me.

[Bananiot]

Indeed, the intercommunal talks of 1968 focused on setting up a unitary state with strong elements of local government. The talks had been successful. In fact, the constitutional advisers from Greece and Turkey, Michael Dekleris for the Greek Cypriots and Orhan Aldikachti for the Turkish Cypriots, had reached a tentative agreement that would have been confirmed by the negotiators of the two communities, Glafkos Clerides and Rauf Denktash, on 16 July 1974. On July 15 the coup happened. Was it just a case of bad luck or did the pavement patriots stepped in to foil the understanding and reconciliation of the two communities that would put an end to their enosis dream? How come so many Cypriots acclaimed the coupists, is it because old habits die hard?

[Murataga]

Those are some rights given to you under specific agreements. If you demand your 100% of rights based on those agreements you have to give us the 100% of ours. It can not be pick and choose.

You had 100% of your rights but you changed your mind (or never signed in to them with intention to honor them to begin with) and tried to get more - remember? In your conquest to do so you devastated the other community and usurped the RoC.

Beyond those agreements the Turks in Cyprus are no different that say the Turks of Bulgaria who have in fact a longer history there than the TCs in Cyprus.

Aforementioned are the legal aspects of what the status and circumstances of the TCs are in Cyprus - which nullifies your perversions. Beyond that is your Sunday Church teachings about history which you try to sell to others - no thanks.

So be smart and take those agreements since as you admit it gave to you so much more than any other minority on our loss, and stop thinking that there is even the slightest possibility you can take even more on our loss by force.

The only fact that stands to which I`ll admit is the one that those agreements gave you much much more than you deserved and we as the TC community payed dearly for having made that mistake. But rest assured, it will not be repeated ever again.

[Nikitas]

Bananiot,

By acclaimed the coupists you mean followed them during those peculiar months of 1973 and 1974? Or do you mean later?

I recall the climate of those times when mostly young, frustrated guys saw the militant stance of EOKA B as a way to fight what they perceived to be a corrupt status quo in Cyprus. My opinion is that the Enosis thing was assumed, the forefront was resistance to the status quo, but like I said, my opinion based on my observations of the time. I do recall a conversation with an EOKA B operative in Famagusta, in June 1973:

"If you assholes start trouble the partition line will be right through your village"

"Don't worry about the Turks, they are spoken to"

The partition line is in fact right through his village today!

That is what Ioannides believed too, that the Turks had been spoken to. ANd when it comes to Federation etc, I am willing to give it a try, provided this time the Turks are really spoken to, and we do not have a surprise.

The professed support for the dictators today is one of those remnants you find in every country. Spain today has Franco sympathizers, and Italy has some diehard fascists. I do not think these people constitue any kind of viable political power today.