Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Piratis wrote

You don't like Bananiot because he accepts our share of the blame, you like him because he puts all blame on our side ignoring all your massive crimes against us

Piratis, would you be a sport and show me where I said the Greek Cypriot communtity has all the blame? Your accusation is quite serious and you should provide some evidence for it. I am eagerly awaiting.

Bananiot why don't you tell us what exactly was the blame of the TC community then? That will be news coming from you.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

I'll wait until Piratis provides the evidence first before telling you that Turkey could have never invaded if it weren't for the "patriots" of the time who did everything in their power to bring Turkey in while shouting sick nationalist slogans, pretty much like you, snake.

...haha...and which nationalist slogans have i shouted?...and does having a very small ultra-nationalist community within a much larger community, mean that they should all be invaded and ethnically cleansed by a foreign power? With your logic, im sure you would not be so contradictive and agree that Turkey should also be invaded and ethnically cleansed - because their ultra nationalism / facism is a hell of a lot worse than what Cyprus had in the 1960's and 70's. Dont you agree??

When I say my community I mean those that mattered in my community, who basically were the ones that shared the loot after we were granted independence. With thier actions they brought Turkey in, after first turning Turkey into a player. Let me tell you a secret while I am at it. The bitch that gave birth to these monsters that destroyed Cyprus is in heat, once again.

Ok Bananiot, so what your saying is the large majority of Greek Cypriots, over 99% who did not want Enosis with Greece did not matter and were NOT important BUT the tiny minority who DID want Enosis with Greece in 1974 mattered a great deal??? Is that what your saying??? For some kind of socialist or whatever you are - you dont place much importance for the ordinary Cypriot, who make the up the fabric of our society, do you!?

Bananiot you have some twisted love affair with Greek nationalists and love to hate them. Deep down you WANT there to be Greek nationalists about because of there wasnt, youd find nothing else to moan about. Your so warped that you place Greek nationalists of higher importance and significance in Cyprus, then the rest / 99% of the Greek Cypriot community.

[erolz]

Unlike you, I do not have my own definition of democracy or respect.
I simply agree with the definition as given here: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm and as applied in all democratic countries in the world. Similarly, i accept the definition of respect to the basic rights as it is defined in all other developed democratic countries of the world.

No Piratis you simply CLAIM to agree with that defination, whilst ignoring key aspects of it that do not suit you agenda.

THE PILLARS OF DEMOCRACY
Sovereignty of the people.

Government based upon consent of the governed.

Majority rule.

Minority rights.

Guarantee of basic human rights.

Free and fair elections.

Equality before the law.

Due process of law.

Constitutional limits on government.

Social, economic, and political pluralism.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise.

The above assumes a single people. The prospect for this was destroyed in Cyprus when you chose to seek to destory the notion of a Cypriot people that included TC and sought to make the Cypriot people mean solely the Greek Cypriots.

Even ignoring this

Sovriegnty of the people. With enosis you sought to DESTROY sovreignty of the CYPRIOT people and make it sovreign to Greece and the Greek people

Government based upon consent of the governed. So after enosis when Athens governs me where is the 'consent' I gave to be ogverned from Athens?

Constitutional limits on government. Where was your respect and acceptance on such consitutional limits on government. You ignore consitutional limits and the consitution in the illegal pursuit of enosis, arguing that YOUR self determination could not ever allow any consituional limits on what a GC government could do.

Values of tolerance, pragmatism, cooperation, and compromise. So where was the tolerance , pragmatism, cooperation and compromise when you told me that Cyprus was not to exist as a state or nation or people because YOU were Greek, and I have no say in the matter? How tolerant was that? How pragmatic was that ? How cooperative was that ? How compromising was that ?

You claim to agree with the above defination but in reality you simply argue that 'Majority rules' is the only real defintion necessary above and beyond all the others, because this is how you seek as a community to oppress and deny my rights as a community.

Nor do not accpet our basic rights as you claim to do. You continue to deny them to this day.

http://www.unpo.org/article.php?id=4957

All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

What is Self-determination?

Essentially, the right to self-determination is the right of a people to determine its own destiny. In particular, the principle allows a people to choose its own political status and to determine its own form of economic, cultural and social development. Exercise of this right can result in a variety of different outcomes ranging from political independence through to full integration within a state. The importance lies in the right of choice, so that the outcome of a people's choice should not affect the existence of the right to make a choice. In practice, however, the possible outcome of an exercise of self-determination will often determine the attitude of governments towards the actual claim by a people or nation. Thus, while claims to cultural autonomy may be more readily recognized by states, claims to independence are more likely to be rejected by them. Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments.

You define yourself as part of the Greek people, and sought to integrate Cyprus into Greece. You can choose to do this, that is your right, but having chosen to do this you CAN NOT talk on behalf of the CYPRIOT people, as you try to do in order to DENY the TC community it's rights as a people - clearly seperate from you as people by your CHOICE of being part of the Greek people. If you are part of the Greek people, seeking Greek objectives in CYprus and not a part of a pan cypriot people seeking a pan Cypriot future for Cyprus - then by YOUR OWN definition you make the TC community a sperate people from you. Having done this you can not claim the GC peoples right to self determination is more important or real or has priority of the TC peoples right. Yet this is EXACTLY what you did and continue to do. So we could broker an agreement based on respect of all our rights as indivduals and as peoples or communites, but ONLY if you recognise our rights in the same way you demand respect for yours. Of course this would not allow you to impose a purely GC, Greek will on the TC community in our shared hoemland, so you simply seek to deny our rights while insiting respect for yours.

As a Cypriot citizen I demand from the other Cypriots and the foreigners that live on our island the exact same respect to my rights that a UK or French or USA citizen would demand in his country. Nothing less and nothing more.

If 98% of the english within the UK decided they were in fact Greek and demanded Enosis not of england to Greece but of Scotland and Wales and Norther Ireland as well, and the Scots , Welsh and Norther Irish all rejected the idea of their forced union with Greece against their communal will, then you would be close to a comparision. With your world view the english alone , pursiong a purely Greek objective, have the right to impose this on the seperate people (seperate because they do not think they are Greek like the english do) of the Scots, Welsh and northen Irish. In your world view of 'right to self determination' ONLY the english have this right within the UK even if they seek to destory the UK as a nation and a state.

You chose to make my community not a part of a shared Cypriot people by choosing to pursue Greek objectives before pan Cypriot ones. Then having chosen to make me a seperate people from you, you tell me you have a right to self determination and I have none. It is this total disregard for our communal rights, that you persist in today, that eventulaly led to your loss of indivdual rights, and your persistents in trying to deny our communal rights is the biggest block to resolving your lost indivdual rights. If you had not sought to trample on our communal rights , CYprus would not today be divided and you would not have lost individual rights. If you were to stop insiting it is a GC right to trample on TC communal rights , then we could find a way forward that restored ALL our rights, but you do not want that. You want your rights respected and you want me to agree that our communal rights do not exist.

Wrong. Respect to ones rights is a right by itself and every human being has it. I don't need you to like me in order to allow me to have my rights. What the hell, do you think we are still your slaves during the Ottoman era?

We were talking about respecting Bananiot as a prson not respect for rights. However as you have changed the subject, it really is very clear. You do not respect my communites right to self determination as a people in Cyprus that is NOT GREEK. In fact you even deny that we are a people in order to deny us these rights, even though you CHOSE to make us a seperate people from you when you chose to pursue a purely GREEK vision for Cyprus, that inherently excluded my community as Cypriots, rather than a pan Cypriot one that woul have allowed us to participate in as Cypriots. In essense this would be no different from me trying to deny your indivudal human rights, on the basis that you are not human. This is what you do and then you talk of me wanting you to be my slave !

You don't like Bananiot because he accepts our share of the blame, you like him because he puts all blame on our side ignoring all your massive crimes against us. Exactly what you do.

This is just bollocks. If you READ what he said then you know this is not true.

As I said in other threads such meetings can be fun and many other things but can not help for the solution of the Cyprus problem since the problem is not due to personal relations but due to the interests of some foreigners, but also in the interest of TCs to keep Cyprus divided and gain on our loss. I also said that I wish I will be proven wrong in this and I am here waiting to see if you or any other partitionist will make even a single compromise from your demands due to these meetings.

No Piratis if ALL you had said is I will not participate because I think such meetings or efforts are pointless, that would have been one thing. However what you actually said is that joining such an effort had a HARMFUL effect. When asked what this harmful effect could be you responded that one day you may have to kill me, in order to take back what is rightfully yours and that if you knew me from meeting or working with on bi communal efforts , this would be harder for you to do and that this would be a BAD THING! That is VERY different from saying you think such activites are pointless.

About being anonymous online this is my right and there is nothing wrong about it.

You have no right to anonimity on tis or any other forum. You have a (limited) ability to maintain such but no RIGHT to it. If the owner of the forum is not you, and if they were to decide tomorrow than no posting is allowed unless a full real life name is given, then you would have no recourse to challenge such a decision based on a RIGHT to post annonymously.
I respect Bannaiot and GR and all those that chose not to HIDE whilst posting on fora such as these BECAUSE they chose not to hide. Cowards hide. Not everyone that hides is a coward of course, but many that do are. If you believe in what you say why not be willing to say it in your own name ?

If I was a school drop out looser without work or family to gain recognition from then maybe I would fill the internet with my name and pretend to be important. Fortunately I am not like that.

LOL. Did you have someone specific in mind then ?

[erolz]

Bananiot why don't you tell us what exactly was the blame of the TC community then? That will be news coming from you.

Will you be doing likewise in return for your community? Will you be explaining to us how when as a community you chose to pursue a future for Cyprus that was purely Greek and totaly anti cypriot as far as a cypriot nation state and people went you KNEW you would exclude and alientate TC community that shared Cyprus with you ? How you did not care about the consequences of such exclusion and alientation of your fellow Cypriots, because in your arogance and racist beleif that you were the only 'true' cypriots you thought you could do as you liked with no regard for us and how terribly wrong you were about this?

I am not holding my breath.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Will you be doing likewise in return for your community?

We have done so repeatedly - we do not hide from the truth. Its no secret that many Turkish Cypriots such as yourself Erolz cannot admit outright the crimes commited by the Turkish Cypriot community...there is always a 'but' or another excuse. Or a "yes but if we look at things from 1960 onwards...".

Will you be explaining to us how when as a community you chose to pursue a future for Cyprus that was purely Greek and totaly anti cypriot as far as a cypriot nation state and people went you KNEW you would exclude and alientate TC community that shared Cyprus with you ?

This is a load of crap and no coincidence it comes from Erolz. If anything, the leaders of Republic of Cyprus wanted to bring Turkish Cypriot rights in the constitution into line with the rest of the Cypriot communities...something which you ridiculously complain about.

How you did not care about the consequences of such exclusion and alientation of your fellow Cypriots, because in your arogance and racist beleif that you were the only 'true' cypriots you thought you could do as you liked with no regard for us and how terribly wrong you were about this?

Erolz, are you living on Mars still or that other website of yours instead? What do you mean exclusion of other Cypriots? The Turkish Cypriot politicians excluded themselves from government and told their people to exclude themselves from Cypriot society...all because they wanted to keep the advantagous rights given to them by the British Empire (a classic divide and conquer trait). They did not want to be 'fellow Cypriots' as you put it - they wanted to have more rights.

[Murataga]

Will you be doing likewise in return for your community?

We have done so repeatedly - we do not hide from the truth. Its no secret that many Turkish Cypriots such as yourself Erolz cannot admit outright the crimes commited by the Turkish Cypriot community...there is always a 'but' or another excuse. Or a "yes but if we look at things from 1960 onwards...".

If defending ourselves from a GC community outnumering us 1 to 4, that is out for a lunatic crusade of annexing this island to Greece is a crime... no problem. You on the other hand should acknowledge and thank the TC community for preventing the ENOSIS of this island instead of building bronze statues of a criminal Archbishop who tried to accomplish it. You should also thank the TC people for stopping and still preventing the Hellenization of Cyprus. Or are you upset that we did/do so?

Will you be explaining to us how when as a community you chose to pursue a future for Cyprus that was purely Greek and totaly anti cypriot as far as a cypriot nation state and people went you KNEW you would exclude and alientate TC community that shared Cyprus with you ?

This is a load of crap and no coincidence it comes from Erolz.

Believe me, it comes from all TCs with minor exceptions.

If anything, the leaders of Republic of Cyprus wanted to bring Turkish Cypriot rights in the constitution into line with the rest of the Cypriot communities...something which you ridiculously complain about.

First: Not the "leaders of the RoC" but the GC leader under the title of the RoC president and other GC community leaders with administrative seats in the RoC. "leaders of the RoC" included the TC representatives which rejected this. Second: In general, the criminal GC leaders had an agenda, and it was to achieve ENOSIS... The fact that they signed an international agreement which made ENOSIS illegal made no difference to them. Indepenedence was not a motive for them. Living in Cyprus with respect to what they agreed with the partner TC community meant nothing to them. In fact these criminals unasahamedly made clear their intentions in 1967 when they had ousted by force the all the TC elements in the government:

The Greek Cypriot House of Representatives Journal of June 27 1967, reported that, on June 26 the deputies had unanimously passed a resolution declaring that the struggle for ENOSIS would continue until the union of Cyprus with the motherland, Greece, was achieved:

"Interpreting the age-long aspirations of the Greeks of Cyprus, the House declares that despite any adverse circumstances it will not suspend the struggle being conducted with the support of all Greeks, until this struggle ends in success through the union of the whole and undivided Cyprus with the motherland, without any intermediary stage."

How you did not care about the consequences of such exclusion and alientation of your fellow Cypriots, because in your arogance and racist beleif that you were the only 'true' cypriots you thought you could do as you liked with no regard for us and how terribly wrong you were about this?

The Turkish Cypriot politicians excluded themselves from government and told their people to exclude themselves from Cypriot society...

Does this sound like "people excluding themselves" from something ?

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/8286 of December 1967

"126. When disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued in the first part of 1964, thousands of Turkish Cypriots fled from their homes, taking with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in what they considered to be safer Turkish Cypriot villages and areas.
The refusal of the Greek Cypriot authorities to allow the Turkish Cypriot refugees to return to their homes in conditions of safety, effectively frusturated persistent Turkish efforts to rehabilitate them. They also obstructed attempts to improve their living conditions"

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/6426 of June 1965

"104. The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous. These include restrictions on the freedom of movement of civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees."

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/5950 of September 1964

"180. UNIFCYP carried out a detailed survery of all damage to properties throughout the island during the disturbances, including the Tyllria fighting. It shows that in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2000 others have suffered damage from looting. ... In many Turkish villages, crowded by the arrival of displaced persons, there is an acute shortage of medical facilities."

[Piratis]

Erolz, you are just distorting the meaning of democracy to fit your needs. The fact is that you do not accept the basic principle of democracy: one person one vote, and you want to divide the citizens of this country based on their ethnic background, something that happens nowhere else.

Union with Greece was our right, and if you want to talk about that subject then lets start a different thread to discuss it again.

Here I didn't ask you to accept union with Greece. What I asked you is to accept democracy in an independent Cyprus and to show some respect to the human rights of Cypriots. Still, you give me your usual lame excuses dug from the past to excuse yet more illegalities against us, forgetting that in the past you have most of the blame. It is really funny when you are trying to blame Cypriots for wanting to exercise their right for union with Greece, when in fact you kept Cyprus as part of the Ottoman empire against the will of the majority of the people for 3+ centuries.

Your minority has the same rights that Turks in Bulgaria, Greeks in Turkey and Blacks in the USA have. I never denied you your rights, what I deny to you is to steal our land and violate our rights.

Maybe you should tell me how Kerynia, Morfou or Famagusta fall under your "self-determination"? I tell you what, take the villages where you are the legal majority, and do whatever you want within them. Thats self determination to the max. Determining what happens in OUR land could not possibly be part of your "self determination" even if you had one.

About my comment regarding war, of course we reserve all rights to fight against the foreign invader to take back what rightfully belongs to us. If it is OK for you to use force to keep what is not yours, then it is 1000 times OK for us to use force to take back what is ours.

About my right to anonymity it is given to me by this forum and this is why I participate here. Have a look at the "about us" page. I do not hide, your troops could see me right in front of them for 13 out of the 26 months of my military service, and I still serve as a reserve on the cease fire line.

LOL. Did you have someone specific in mind then ?

You. Did I get anything wrong?

[Piratis]

Murataga, I asked you before when you post reports and resolutions to give links to the whole report, and not just the tiny bits that suit you. Can you do that? Or your Turkish propaganda sources do not provide this?

[Pyrpolizer]

Bananiot why don't you tell us what exactly was the blame of the TC community then? That will be news coming from you.

Will you be doing likewise in return for your community? Will you be explaining to us how when as a community you chose to pursue a future for Cyprus that was purely Greek and totaly anti cypriot as far as a cypriot nation state and people went you KNEW you would exclude and alientate TC community that shared Cyprus with you ? How you did not care about the consequences of such exclusion and alientation of your fellow Cypriots, because in your arogance and racist beleif that you were the only 'true' cypriots you thought you could do as you liked with no regard for us and how terribly wrong you were about this?

I am not holding my breath.

Is your name Bananiot?

[Murataga]

Erolz, you are just distorting the meaning of democracy to fit your needs. The fact is that you do not accept the basic principle of democracy: one person one vote, and you want to divide the citizens of this country based on their ethnic background, something that happens nowhere else.

Union with Greece was our right, and if you want to talk about that subject then lets start a different thread to discuss it again.

Here I didn't ask you to accept union with Greece. What I asked you is to accept democracy in an independent Cyprus and to show some respect to the human rights of Cypriots. Still, you give me your usual lame excuses dug from the past to excuse yet more illegalities against us, forgetting that in the past you have most of the blame. It is really funny when you are trying to blame Cypriots for wanting to exercise their right for union with Greece, when in fact you kept Cyprus as part of the Ottoman empire against the will of the majority of the people for 3+ centuries.

Your minority has the same rights that Turks in Bulgaria, Greeks in Turkey and Blacks in the USA have. I never denied you your rights, what I deny to you is to steal our land and violate our rights.

Maybe you should tell me how Kerynia, Morfou or Famagusta fall under your "self-determination"? I tell you what, take the villages where you are the legal majority, and do whatever you want within them. Thats self determination to the max. Determining what happens in OUR land could not possibly be part of your "self determination" even if you had one.

About my comment regarding war, of course we reserve all rights to fight against the foreign invader to take back what rightfully belongs to us. If it is OK for you to use force to keep what is not yours, then it is 1000 times OK for us to use force to take back what is ours.

About my right to anonymity it is given to me by this forum and this is why I participate here. Have a look at the "about us" page. I do not hide, your troops could see me right in front of them for 13 out of the 26 months of my military service, and I still serve as a reserve on the cease fire line.

LOL. Did you have someone specific in mind then ?

You. Did I get anything wrong?

Have any of these countries been established with the cosignatories of two communities? Have the GCs alone established the RoC or GCs and TCs together? Do any of the peoples` representatives in Cyprus like the Armenians, Maronites or Latins have a signature in the Agreements which brought about the existence of the RoC? Has your leader, Makarios III, signed the Agreements, which made the RoC a reality, in front of the whole world clearly putting his honor and word in writing that he accepts the conditions and terms indicated within ? Has that leader won an election in 1959 among the GC people with 144,501 votes, while his rival John Clerides who openly refused and resisted the conditions/terms of the Agreements which brought about the existence of RoC got only 71,753 votes and loose? Was the sole basis of John Clerides` presidential campaign the condemnation of the agreements? What rights does the constitution of the RoC provide to the TC people who are the cosignatories to the establishment of the RoC ? Do you think that the granting of these rights have anything to do with the fact that they are the cosignatories of the very Agreement which permits the RoC to exist? Are these rights the rights of minorities? Which people are explicitly mentioned as “religious minors to be protected” in the Constitution’s Appendix E?