Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Are you now insinuating that I support the TMT pyrpolyser? What I have claimed, and this is my firm belief, is that TMT would be treading on thin water had we not provided the excuse. Had Sampson and Yiorgadgis, along with Lissarides, not been murdering kids and women in Omorfita, but extended a warm hand to the ordinary Turkish Cypriots, TMT would have found it extremely difficult to recruit members. Samson, a known murderer, was given a heroes status and went visiting villages and communities where young women showered him with flowers. Makarios, I am sorry to say, at best kept silent and allowed the paramilitary to dictate its terms.

It is extremely childish indeed to think that a proposition to change the Constitution is a light hearted affair. It is easy to blame the Turks as if they encouraged makarios to go ahead in order to use it as an excuse but, despite being very young at the time, I remember clearly the time when Makarios went on a state visit to Turkey and Inonu, this serene gentleman, urged Makarios "your beautitude, please do not go ahead". It makes no sense trying to deny this and keep the Greek Cypriots in the dark, constantly believing that they are always the victims, when the whole world knows about it. Of course, Kifeas has categoricaly said that "who cares about the international community" but this is only another example of how apolitical this person is.

Of course I have heard of the rumours pyrpolyser but please also tell us who was spreading the rumours. Then we can make some safe deductions.

Chill out Bananiot! I am not insinuating anything!

I was just countering your OWN argument ,when you said those BIG WORDS that Pyrpolizer, carefully conceals the "NUMEROUS" times you wrote against TMT, perhaps to press home his point or to discredit you in the eyes of the GC readers.

These were your own words not mine!

I just proved to you that what you said about "the numerous times you wrote against TMT" is simply not true. In fact you never wrote anything else other than a few one liners where the word TMT appears. NOT ONE SINGLE COMPLETE POST AGAINST TMT! The forum search engine doesn't lie! I am not going to call you a liar just because of your erroneous boasting …. So be more careful when you accuse others with such BIG words.

For me your position is very clear in fact you said it yourself earlier. No need to repeat it.

As for the rest of your post, GR already answered perfectly.

[erolz]

Makarios did not 'merely' make 13 proposals.

He made 13 'proposals' , without any consultation before hand with the TC community , that fundamentaly altered the very basis of the 60's agreements against a backgroud of the three previous years where he had blocked and refused to implement that which had ALREADY been agreed and signed, in the process ignoring the RoC's own consitutional court rulings on the matter. That is not consistent with a leader that was sincerely trying to find a workable PARTNERSHIP form of the RoC.

Of course it is just irrelevant conincidence that the Akritas plan talks specificaly of making such 'proposals'.

From the Akritas plan

(iii) The removal of these provisions, despite the fact that this is reasonable and necessary, because of the unreasonable attitude of the Turks is not possible bv agreement, and therefore unilateral action is justified;

The actions to be taken can be summed up as follows:

a) Amendment of the negative elements of the agreements ...

Tactics: We shall attempt to justify unilateral action for constitutional amendments once the efforts for a common agreement are excluded.

Tactics. Our actions for constitutional amendments will be in the open and we will always appear ready for peaceful negotiations.

On the contrary, it is easier for us, using legal methods, to amend, for instance, the provision of the 70 to 30 ratio in the public service, when it is the Turks who will have to take positive violent action, while for us this procedure will not amount to action, but to refusal to act (to implement).

It is, however, naive to believe that it is possible to proceed to substantive acts of amendment of the constitution, as a first step of our general plan, as has been described above, without the Turks at tempting to create or to stage violent clashes. For this reason, the existence of our organisation is an imperative necessity because:

Now it does not matter if the Akritas plan was floowed as laid out. What it shows is a mind set and attitude and goals and understanding.

It is just bollocks to claim 'all' Makarios did was make some 'proposals'. The authors of the Akritas plan clearly knew how 'naive' it would be to think that such fundamental changes to the consitution , under the guise of 'proposals' as a first stage to unilateral inpostion would solicit no response from the TC leadership and community. They also clearly knew the tatical advantage of simply NOT IMPLEMENTING that which had been agreed - in order to try and FORCE the TC leadership to react. Whihc is EXACTLY what Makarios had been doing leading up to the 'proposals' - even ignoring the consitutional courts rulings (so much for leaglity then, then!)

It is just bollocks to pretend that the post 60's GC leadership was NOT determined to remove the powers granted to the TC community and AGREED to by Makarios, NOT to ensure the smooth functioning of the bicommunal RoC, but in order to REMOVE the bicomunialty from the RoC that they had agrred too and reduce the TC community to a political minority, using illegal meathods, deception and where necessary violence. It is just plain evident FACT that they did seek to do these things as far as I am concerned.

The GC leadership under Makarios not only wrote plans as to how to 'get out' of the agreements they made in order to remove unilaterlay the bicommunal aspects of the RoC, they also behaved in a manner that was totaly consistent with such an objective and as such must take the responsibilty that these choices had in the events that (invetibaly if u beleive the Akritas plan) followed.

The objective, in the Akritas plan and in the GC leaderships actions was the unilateral removal of the bicommuniality they had previously agreed to. They knew they would not be able to legaly achive this with consent so they sought to achieve it illegaly with deception and 'refusing to implement' and where necessary violence whilst holding of Turkish intervention. This was the policy pursued and the pursuit of it is what ultimately made intevention possible.

[erolz]

The forum search engine doesn't lie! .

No it does not but you and your interpretations of the forum search engine are not the search engine are they ?

So you are saying that all GC's are evil and all TC's are innocent victims. That is a totally wrong and absurd claim. There were evil GC's as well as evil TC's. They were the nationalists who inflicted great pain on members of their own community above all. Do you remember TMT? Can you name some of the TC's it murdered? This is not about GC's Vs TC's. It is about a banch of nationalist butchers on both sides who never gave the young republic a chance to prosper. Both sides committed atrocities but real, true Cypriots seek to put everything behind them and start a new era. This is not a matter for asking for forgiveness but a matter of magnanimity because we all have something to give. However, for my part I am ready to ask for forgiveness for the actions of the GC extreme right wingers but, reading between the lines, of your post, I would safely bet that you are probably a TC nationalist with whom I have nothing in common.

My TC friends feel exactly like me about the sufferings and agony caused by Turkey and TMT against my community. We need to recognise all these crimes and promise that we will never allow the hot heads to repeat them.

When my friend Hasan tells me how his two teenage brothers were butchered in a village close to Nicosia, I cannot turn and tell him "listen, your people did worse". I said to him, one day in his house, "take this knife and kill me". He hugged me and started crying.

In short, we need to recognise and accept full responsibility for all crimes committed. We need to apologise to each other, mourn together, turn a new page and promise that these atrocities will never be repeated. True Cypriots have no problem with the above. Some do not want to hear. Most of them is because they were actively involved in massacres or have been brain washed by nationalists.

TMT were killing Turkish Cypriots simply because they were against taksim. If we showed passion to the TC community and not scare them off with our enosis wild dreams then TMT would find no grounds to exist. Instead, the paramilitary fascist of Akritas embark on a killing sprey of innocent TC's (erolz's uncle for example) making it easy for TMT to recruit members.

I could go on. The point is however clear.

Where Bannaniot is aytipcal as a cypriot is that he comdems the violent brutal and anti Cypriot Cypriots of BOTH sides. Yes he focuses more on 'his' side and it is much to his credit that he is able to do this and does so. The idea however that he ONLY critisises or comdems GC is just nonsense (or lies) if one actualy uses the search facility and READS what he writes. He does not excuse or ignore the violence comitted by TC - what he does that solicits so much attack from some fellow GC is he also does not excuse or ignore the violence of GC either. The truth is out there for any that want to see it, and the search function does not lie.

[repulsewarrior]

Thanks erolz/

[Piratis]

He made 13 'proposals' , without any consultation before hand with the TC community

He didn't have to consult with anybody to make proposals. Period.

Of course it is just irrelevant conincidence that the Akritas plan talks specificaly of making such 'proposals'.

The Akritas plan, the Piratis plan, the Erolz plan, can talk about whatever they feel like. That document was nothing more than a document written by somebody who might have even been a Turk. It had nothing to do with the government of Cyprus. The fact that you are using some document as an excuse proves the weakness of your argument.

The objective, in the Akritas plan and in the GC leaderships actions was the unilateral removal of the bicommuniality they had previously agreed to. They knew they would not be able to legaly achive this with consent so they sought to achieve it illegaly with deception and 'refusing to implement' and where necessary violence whilst holding of Turkish intervention. This was the policy pursued and the pursuit of it is what ultimately made intevention possible.

The objective of Cypriots was to make Cyprus a democratic country through reforms that were obviously needed.
If you take the 13 points 1 by 1 you will see that there was nothing criminal or wrong in them, but on the contrary they were proposals for progressive reforms that would bring Cyprus in line with other democratic countries.

What made the invasion possible was that Turkey has a big army and they don't mind to use it for criminal actions against international law. They had absolutely no right to do what they did, and the UN resolution the day of the invasion points this fact out very clearly by demanding the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Cyprus and the respect of the sovereignty of RoC.

[Pyrpolizer]

The forum search engine doesn't lie! .

No it does not but you and your interpretations of the forum search engine are not the search engine are they ?

So you are saying that all GC's are evil and all TC's are innocent victims. That is a totally wrong and absurd claim. There were evil GC's as well as evil TC's. They were the nationalists who inflicted great pain on members of their own community above all. Do you remember TMT? Can you name some of the TC's it murdered? This is not about GC's Vs TC's. It is about a banch of nationalist butchers on both sides who never gave the young republic a chance to prosper. Both sides committed atrocities but real, true Cypriots seek to put everything behind them and start a new era. This is not a matter for asking for forgiveness but a matter of magnanimity because we all have something to give. However, for my part I am ready to ask for forgiveness for the actions of the GC extreme right wingers but, reading between the lines, of your post, I would safely bet that you are probably a TC nationalist with whom I have nothing in common.

My TC friends feel exactly like me about the sufferings and agony caused by Turkey and TMT against my community. We need to recognise all these crimes and promise that we will never allow the hot heads to repeat them.

When my friend Hasan tells me how his two teenage brothers were butchered in a village close to Nicosia, I cannot turn and tell him "listen, your people did worse". I said to him, one day in his house, "take this knife and kill me". He hugged me and started crying.

In short, we need to recognise and accept full responsibility for all crimes committed. We need to apologise to each other, mourn together, turn a new page and promise that these atrocities will never be repeated. True Cypriots have no problem with the above. Some do not want to hear. Most of them is because they were actively involved in massacres or have been brain washed by nationalists.

TMT were killing Turkish Cypriots simply because they were against taksim. If we showed passion to the TC community and not scare them off with our enosis wild dreams then TMT would find no grounds to exist. Instead, the paramilitary fascist of Akritas embark on a killing sprey of innocent TC's (erolz's uncle for example) making it easy for TMT to recruit members.

I could go on. The point is however clear.

Where Bannaniot is aytipcal as a cypriot is that he comdems the violent brutal and anti Cypriot Cypriots of BOTH sides. Yes he focuses more on 'his' side and it is much to his credit that he is able to do this and does so. The idea however that he ONLY critisises or comdems GC is just nonsense (or lies) if one actualy uses the search facility and READS what he writes. He does not excuse or ignore the violence comitted by TC - what he does that solicits so much attack from some fellow GC is he also does not excuse or ignore the violence of GC either. The truth is out there for any that want to see it, and the search function does not lie.

And here comes the great eroltz to prove us he is the search Engine!!!

No need my friend. I already quoted the first 5 of his one liners, out of 24 in contrast with 400+ (most of them full posts) where he talks against his Anti-Christ.

I wonder did you really got the point

You actually added nothing more than proving once again that his references to TMT were always in contrast to Eoka, and they were nothing more than general aphorisms. Even when he had to just name one of the crimes each of those organizations did, he chose only the one done by Eoka to his friend Hasan. That's what one could call bias, no?

NB. Good job ha! I can almost see you sweating and blushing reading all his 24 one liners in agony and despair to JUST PERHAPS locate one complete detailed post against TMT.
Now do yourself a favor and read a few of his diatribes on Papadopoulos. I hope you will manage to see the difference.

[Bananiot]

Thanks for going to the trouble to unearth those quotes Erol. You know, I am really fed up with this game. It is bad enough listening to the Archbishop on a daily basis telling us that we should not question the President publicly but give him all our support. These people have not realised that the world has moved on. They remain encroached in theories of the past.

Let me state my case once again, in the hope that some people at least can understand what I am saying. I am an evolutionary biologist. I believe in the scientific method and that people are not born to be bad. True, the genes are important, but as we say, the genes put the bullets into the gun but it is the environment that actually fires them. The constant, never ending recrimination that takes place in this forum, does not help to soften the hearts of people. On the contrary, it brings the worst out of people. People on both sides of the divide have suffered. Everybody agrees on this one. This has spread mistrust and fear in both communities. If we want to reunite Cyprus we need to create an environment where fear and mistrust can slowly die out. This will take time and numerous peaceful years where the two communities will live and prosper and begin to appreciate that peaceful coesistence has more to offer than permanent division.

The solution, in other words, that will eventually unite Cyprus will need to evolve (gradually of course) and we need to acquire stsaying power to see this through. As always, we need things to happen yesterday and this makes us susceptible to frustration and mistake making that perpetuate the impasse and lead us to the worst.

I believe, by example, I have managed to gain the trust and respect of the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum. This is the way to go about it but of course I am not a fool to believe that this can bring results when exercised on a personal level. All it got me is some great friends from the other side, which is more than enough for me. To have a universal, so to speak, effect, this kind ofd thinking needs to be embraced by the parties, as they are the bearers and shapers of the public opinion.

AKEL and CTP may provide a ray of hope. Also, there are many healthy people in DISI and some other smaller parties in both communities. Together, they make the vast majority of the Cypriot people and hopefully a new era can begin after February when we will be done with the bigots and rejectionists that hijacked the RoC in the last 5 years.

[Pyrpolizer]

Thanks erolz/

You two come in pairs?

[Pyrpolizer]

......

I believe, by example, I have managed to gain the trust and respect of the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum. This is the way to go about it but of course I am not a fool to believe that this can bring results when exercised on a personal level. All it got me is some great friends from the other side, which is more than enough for me. To have a universal, so to speak, effect, this kind ofd thinking needs to be embraced by the parties, as they are the bearers and shapers of the public opinion.

But this is fake, can't you see. It goes against your principles for the whole truth! You came to a point of fearing to even talk openly for the sins of the other side, been afraid you would lose the trust and respect of the TC friends you made.
This is not honest! If I were a TC I would look at you with suspicion.

It is of course noble for people from each side to show each other their understanding and compassion. But let's not fool ourselves. We the GCs will never understand what it REALLY meant for the TCs, and the TCs will never understand what it REALLY meant for the GCs. We simply did not live in it, neither our parents, neither our relatives. Our suffering was separate.

I will bet all my chances on common experiences AFTER A SOLUTION.

[Piratis]

Let me state my case once again, in the hope that some people at least can understand what I am saying. I am an evolutionary biologist. I believe in the scientific method and that people are not born to be bad. True, the genes are important, but as we say, the genes put the bullets into the gun but it is the environment that actually fires them. The constant, never ending recrimination that takes place in this forum, does not help to soften the hearts of people. On the contrary, it brings the worst out of people. People on both sides of the divide have suffered. Everybody agrees on this one. This has spread mistrust and fear in both communities. If we want to reunite Cyprus we need to create an environment where fear and mistrust can slowly die out. This will take time and numerous peaceful years where the two communities will live and prosper and begin to appreciate that peaceful coesistence has more to offer than permanent division.

That environment is the one of democracy, human rights and no racist discriminations.

An undemocratic environment where people are discriminated against due to their ethnic background and their human rights are violated is exactly the kind of environment that creates new conflicts, not the one that can help heal old wounds.

I believe, by example, I have managed to gain the trust and respect of the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum.

Respect means to respect our rights. What you gained is not their respect. They just like you for the same reasons that a master likes his most submissive slaves.

One thing is to say openly your opinion and say what you believe is the truth with as little bias as possible, and another thing is to be submissive just for the sake of being liked by those that dislike anybody that fights for his rights.