Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

The Junta fell and Turkey invaded a SECOND time, which they had no reason too...and decided to ethnically cleanse the north of Greeks, Maronites, Latins...Christians basically.

The whole thing about Turkey being there to protect the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek Cypriots is a load of bullshit and im inclined to think most level-headed Turkish Cypriots know this too. Its just another excuse to aggressively expand Turkey's military might in the Aegean.

So I ask you again...what has Greece been doing wrong with regards to the Cyprus problem in the last 30 years or so? You should really blame America for the Greek junta and not Greece anyway.

Most sensible TCs indeed know that Turkey is in Cyprus for her own interests. If Turkey was interested just in protecting TCs she can do that from Turkey which is only 5 minutes away by fighterjets...

Turkey and Greece were doing America's bidding back in 1974. All 3 are equally guilty. The fact that things did not work out exactly as planned does not absolve Greece from equal share of the guilt. Once the genie was out of the bottle,it was just imposible to put it back...Turkey is still in Cyprus today doing the USA's bidding,and now serving the twisted and camouflaged national ambitions of the Islamic(oh so warmly) agenda of the ruling AKP...I agree that Greece is largely out of the picture now,but can you really forget and forgive one of the rapists of your motherland,because it happened 33 years ago??????

Let me correct you on that- all TCs know that Turkey is here to protect her interets. What you fail to observe is that those interets which are the secure survival and existence of TCs in Cyprus and that Cyprus never be Hellenized is something that coincides with our interests as TCs. There is is absolutely nothing wrong with our and their interests to be in the same lot - and I sure hope it stays that way. It is called international relations.

As far as sending jets to protect us is concerned - I think it is best to leave military tactical decisons to experts, especially given how effective jets were on their own in preventing our sufferings in the 63-74 period and the sheer number of illegal National Guard troops lined up at the other side

We will have to agree to disagree on this point,Murataga....
Turkey washed her hands off TCs when she signed away her rights to the British in Lozan back in the 20s...And if it wasn't for the British and the likes of Denktash agitating,and the USA ultimately,Turkey would not've turned her head to even look at us,...

The most critical island in the Mediaterranean that is 50 nautical miles from her southern coast becoming a part of Greece, a millenium old rival which she was fighting to the death a couple of decades ago, and you are claiming "Turkey would not've turned her head to even look at us" ? I`ll let you guess my response to that one.

as was the case during the 1963-74 period

I`ll let you do some more reading on the aid we received from Turkey between 63-74 when we were ambargoed in enclaves and the time which we were attacked by Grivas` (who was appointed Supreme Commander of the Greek and Greek Cypriot armed forces by Archbishop Makarios III) men in 67 at Kophinou Will try to send you a few references which also mention Turkey wanted to intervene before 74 twice and but couldn`t due to lack of military capability once and pressures from the U.S. the other time.

As a matter of interest,what is your take on the British and American involvement in the Cyprus conflict???? What role if any you think they played in the way things turned out???

This one is a huge animal that we`ll have to tackle some other time.

I would like to add to above because I am really getting pissed off by the Greek propaganda BK is pursuing against all reasonable arguments that have been put forward to him in the past to counterbalance his constant one sided accusations. He is beginning to sound more like a Greek nationalist than anything else!

I HAVE ONE ADVICE FOR YOU BK - READ ABOUT WHAT ORANOS64 AND THE snake_ETC HAS BEEN WRITING, AND SOM EOF THEIR SUPPORTERS ON THOSE POSTS! Then tell us tc TCs how much freedom we have.

it represents a non existent defunct political entity that means nothing but tears and bloodshed to many TCs. Many TCs living in TRNC rightly feel they are still oppressed today by those representing the flag and may take offence to it being hoisted in place of the current TRNC flag which to them, represents more today's TC.

I do not know about anyone in TRNC objecting to British or EU flags because they are often seen hoisted in different places. Personal dislikes between the policemen and the person concerned may have caused things to go to extreme - which is not too unusual even in UK and Australia on the odd occasions. Whyu anyone should make it a meal of it is beyond MY comprehension!

All those who get an eyesore - try this for size:

[zan]

The Junta fell and Turkey invaded a SECOND time, which they had no reason too...and decided to ethnically cleanse the north of Greeks, Maronites, Latins...Christians basically.

The whole thing about Turkey being there to protect the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek Cypriots is a load of bullshit and im inclined to think most level-headed Turkish Cypriots know this too. Its just another excuse to aggressively expand Turkey's military might in the Aegean.

So I ask you again...what has Greece been doing wrong with regards to the Cyprus problem in the last 30 years or so? You should really blame America for the Greek junta and not Greece anyway.

Most sensible TCs indeed know that Turkey is in Cyprus for her own interests. If Turkey was interested just in protecting TCs she can do that from Turkey which is only 5 minutes away by fighterjets...

Turkey and Greece were doing America's bidding back in 1974. All 3 are equally guilty. The fact that things did not work out exactly as planned does not absolve Greece from equal share of the guilt. Once the genie was out of the bottle,it was just imposible to put it back...Turkey is still in Cyprus today doing the USA's bidding,and now serving the twisted and camouflaged national ambitions of the Islamic(oh so warmly) agenda of the ruling AKP...I agree that Greece is largely out of the picture now,but can you really forget and forgive one of the rapists of your motherland,because it happened 33 years ago??????

I thought we had put that myth, about Turkey landing troops on Cyprus again after withdrawing them, to bed ages ago? The fact that modern weapons would make it impossible and that getting permission from those involved to do so would also make it impossible and very very dangerous for the region....And the fact that air power alone will not have the effect needed are just a few to make you change your mind??????


You seem to have changed your tack on the problem of Turkey as well.....before it was all about the army and now its about Islam...Are yu now saying that it is a good thing to have the army playing its role as Attaturk intended? OR...is it because you are thinking about doing your national service and want to hedge your bets? [/b]

[bigOz]

The Junta fell and Turkey invaded a SECOND time, which they had no reason too...and decided to ethnically cleanse the north of Greeks, Maronites, Latins...Christians basically.

The whole thing about Turkey being there to protect the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek Cypriots is a load of bullshit and im inclined to think most level-headed Turkish Cypriots know this too. Its just another excuse to aggressively expand Turkey's military might in the Aegean.

So I ask you again...what has Greece been doing wrong with regards to the Cyprus problem in the last 30 years or so? You should really blame America for the Greek junta and not Greece anyway.

Most sensible TCs indeed know that Turkey is in Cyprus for her own interests. If Turkey was interested just in protecting TCs she can do that from Turkey which is only 5 minutes away by fighterjets...

Turkey and Greece were doing America's bidding back in 1974. All 3 are equally guilty. The fact that things did not work out exactly as planned does not absolve Greece from equal share of the guilt. Once the genie was out of the bottle,it was just imposible to put it back...Turkey is still in Cyprus today doing the USA's bidding,and now serving the twisted and camouflaged national ambitions of the Islamic(oh so warmly) agenda of the ruling AKP...I agree that Greece is largely out of the picture now,but can you really forget and forgive one of the rapists of your motherland,because it happened 33 years ago??????

I thought we had put that myth, about Turkey landing troops on Cyprus again after withdrawing them, to bed ages ago? The fact that modern weapons would make it impossible and that getting permission from those involved to do so would also make it impossible and very very dangerous for the region....And the fact that air power alone will not have the effect needed are just a few to make you change your mind??????


You seem to have changed your tack on the problem of Turkey as well.....before it was all about the army and now its about Islam...Are yu now saying that it is a good thing to have the army playing its role as Attaturk intended? OR...is it because you are thinking about doing your national service and want to hedge your bets? [/b]

Zan you are absolutely right. All this time it was "No democracy in Turkey" because it was the Turkish army ruling since they made their presence felt for the continuation of a secular state. NOW it is the "islamic" (?) government who has become the enemy of the people and democracy.

It just proves people are arguing for the sake of winning an argument and I really have not got much time for going over things million times, just because couple of new user names start off shooting in new directions. Not to mention the type of crap written by snake about the second invasion that has already been explained fully in many previous threads.

Mate I am very busy and I've done my part - hence that is why I have piped down on sending posts! If there are fools who believe they can get where they want travelling in a "hot air balloon" - let them... They'll soon find out they'll land where the wind takes them and not where they desire to be. Some never learn!

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Most sensible TCs indeed know that Turkey is in Cyprus for her own interests. If Turkey was interested just in protecting TCs she can do that from Turkey which is only 5 minutes away by fighterjets...

Turkey and Greece were doing America's bidding back in 1974. All 3 are equally guilty. The fact that things did not work out exactly as planned does not absolve Greece from equal share of the guilt. Once the genie was out of the bottle,it was just imposible to put it back...Turkey is still in Cyprus today doing the USA's bidding,and now serving the twisted and camouflaged national ambitions of the Islamic(oh so warmly) agenda of the ruling AKP...I agree that Greece is largely out of the picture now,but can you really forget and forgive one of the rapists of your motherland,because it happened 33 years ago??????

No you can never forgive the junta government but to say Greece and Turkey have an equal share of the blame for the current Cyprus problem is ridiculous. The Junta campaign lasted only a few years - Turkey has been occupying Cyprus for 33 years. Also look at the trouble Turkey has cause with regards to ethnic cleansing, bringing in settlers, the violation and destruction of countless religious buildings etc and basically adding to the problem. Turkey has violated Cyprus a lot more than Greece ever did. I know what the Junta government did was very wrong but to say Greece and Turkey hold an equal share to the current problem is inocorrect. Its not about Enosis anymore and hasnt been for ages. Turkey is only using that as an excuse. What its really about is Turkey's aggressive expansion policy and now realising they are stuck between a rock and a hard place with Cyprus.

Also if you llok at one of Turkish Cypriot's posts, he has poased videos of a Greek and Turkish Cypriot unity scheme, ORGANISED by the government of Greece. I dont see and doubt i will ever see Turkey doing the same because it WANTS segregation of the island. Remember the Greek people toppled the Greekmilitary government in the 1974, where as Turkey has always had a Turkish military government which is loved by its people.

[BirKibrisli]

My position on the Cyprus problem has not changed over the time I have been posting here. I strongly believe the only viable solution,one that will deliver most justice and fairness to all Cypriots,and one which will be peaceful and lasting is to forget about our ethnicity and embrace our Cypriotness fully...Then we can live in unitary state based on democracy and the principles of equal opportunity,human rights and the rule of law...

Once you forget ur ethnicity the problem of Majority and Minority dissapears into thin air,and we become Cypriots in a multicultural land,getting on with our lives...There has to be alot of preparation before this can happen,and i admit,people are more inclined to score political points on each other at the highest level than put in the measures necessary for the kind of Republic I want to live in...My opinions on the political and social turmoil in Turkey has been changing over time...I now see the emergence of an Islamic republic as more dangerous then the power of the military to influence politics... my opinion on Turkey's interest in Cyprus has not changed in the slightest. The interests of the TCs will always be the last on the list of the priorities of any Turkish government. If and when it suits them they will pack up and leave without the slightest consideration for our safety or survival. If you guys want to fool urselves go right ahead. But I am not going to stop saying what I think simply because it might be considered "Greek" propaganda...

[Viewpoint]

My position on the Cyprus problem has not changed over the time I have been posting here. I strongly believe the only viable solution,one that will deliver most justice and fairness to all Cypriots,and one which will be peaceful and lasting is to forget about our ethnicity and embrace our Cypriotness fully...Then we can live in unitary state based on democracy and the principles of equal opportunity,human rights and the rule of law...

Once you forget ur ethnicity the problem of Majority and Minority dissapears into thin air,and we become Cypriots in a multicultural land,getting on with our lives...There has to be alot of preparation before this can happen,and i admit,people are more inclined to score political points on each other at the highest level than put in the measures necessary for the kind of Republic I want to live in...My opinions on the political and social turmoil in Turkey has been changing over time...I now see the emergence of an Islamic republic as more dangerous then the power of the military to influence politics... my opinion on Turkey's interest in Cyprus has not changed in the slightest. The interests of the TCs will always be the last on the list of the priorities of any Turkish government. If and when it suits them they will pack up and leave without the slightest consideration for our safety or survival. If you guys want to fool urselves go right ahead. But I am not going to stop saying what I think simply because it might be considered "Greek" propaganda...

The most important point you made here is highlighted, it is that preparation that we have not been able to establish as the 2 communities do not share a common view...the GCs want what you want as it will give them total control over the whole island in a unitary state to do what they wish and TCs no not want to be ruled solely by Gcs so they opt for a BBF and lots of safeguards. So hey presto we have stale mate...imo to get toa unitary state we have to go through a process of change which will nto come over night we need to demonstrate that a united cyprus is better for all than a divided one and that everyones fears and concerns are unwarranted just ignoring them will not make them go away they will intensify and get worse thus continuing the current status quo.

[Nikitas]

I am with Bir. As for safeguards etc, that is all fine, and they should be provided so as to make everyone feel safe. No sane person wants to repeat the events of 1963 or 1974. Full participation in the political life of the future state makes the Turkish Cypriots a major if not THE major political force. Just think of any politician who wants to be elected and how he would look at the 18 per cent of the vote! Separating the communities was the problem all along, it robbed the Turkish Cypriots of the power of their vote in the overall political life of the island.

I look forward to a time when the presidential candidate will choose a vice presidential running mate and both together will seek the vote of all Cypriots. The separate choice of president and vice president as if the politics in each community are irrelevant to the other was nonsense from the start. Each candidate will have to come from the two major communities of the island, but not necessarily in the order Greek President Turkish Vice president. It can be the other way around in a unitary state with full implementation of human rights in the modern sense.

[denizaksulu]

[quote="the_snake_and_the_crane"]The Junta fell and Turkey invaded a SECOND time, which they had no reason too...and decided to ethnically cleanse the north of Greeks, Maronites, Latins...Christians basically.

The whole thing about Turkey being there to protect the Turkish Cypriots from the Greek Cypriots is a load of bullshit and im inclined to think most level-headed Turkish Cypriots know this too. Its just another excuse to aggressively expand Turkey's military might in the Aegean.

So I ask you again...what has Greece been doing wrong with regards to the Cyprus problem in the last 30 years or so? You should really blame America for the Greek junta and not Greece anyway.[/quote]

Did you study the military events at the time? While negotiations were taking place Greece WAS attemeting to aid the NG with air support etc. Militarily it would have been a folly not to break out of the bridge head. The concentration of the Turk. army made them sitting ducks at the time.

Regards
DA

[Viewpoint]

I am with Bir. As for safeguards etc, that is all fine, and they should be provided so as to make everyone feel safe. No sane person wants to repeat the events of 1963 or 1974. Full participation in the political life of the future state makes the Turkish Cypriots a major if not THE major political force. Just think of any politician who wants to be elected and how he would look at the 18 per cent of the vote! Separating the communities was the problem all along, it robbed the Turkish Cypriots of the power of their vote in the overall political life of the island.

I look forward to a time when the presidential candidate will choose a vice presidential running mate and both together will seek the vote of all Cypriots. The separate choice of president and vice president as if the politics in each community are irrelevant to the other was nonsense from the start. Each candidate will have to come from the two major communities of the island, but not necessarily in the order Greek President Turkish Vice president. It can be the other way around in a unitary state with full implementation of human rights in the modern sense.

With 82% of the vote in the hands of GCs do you really hand on heart feel that they will vote according to ability and not ethnic back ground, I have my doubts and becuase this puts my community at risk and not yours therefore I need safeguards to ensure we have a say in our own future and can stop any laws that will effect either community negatively.

[EPSILON]

I am with Bir. As for safeguards etc, that is all fine, and they should be provided so as to make everyone feel safe. No sane person wants to repeat the events of 1963 or 1974. Full participation in the political life of the future state makes the Turkish Cypriots a major if not THE major political force. Just think of any politician who wants to be elected and how he would look at the 18 per cent of the vote! Separating the communities was the problem all along, it robbed the Turkish Cypriots of the power of their vote in the overall political life of the island.

I look forward to a time when the presidential candidate will choose a vice presidential running mate and both together will seek the vote of all Cypriots. The separate choice of president and vice president as if the politics in each community are irrelevant to the other was nonsense from the start. Each candidate will have to come from the two major communities of the island, but not necessarily in the order Greek President Turkish Vice president. It can be the other way around in a unitary state with full implementation of human rights in the modern sense.

With 82% of the vote in the hands of GCs do you really hand on heart feel that they will vote according to ability and not ethnic back ground, I have my doubts and becuase this puts my community at risk and not yours therefore I need safeguards to ensure we have a say in our own future and can stop any laws that will effect either community negatively.

Despite your above points this how a democratic and particularly European state is working.Otherwise we are speaking about a dictatorship of minority against the majority which is the case in Cyprus for the last 50 years.

If you which I can explain to you what the word Democracy means because I am not sure that you learned this word in your scholl