Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Kifeas,
Just one further question or clarification. You wrote :

the TC community numbered about the 18% of the Cypriot population, in the 1948 census, in the in 1960 census, as well in 1974!

Whilst of course I'll try to check and corroborate these figures, you stop at 1974. As fare as you are aware, can you tell me what the proportion was in 2004 and today ? Which do you think are the most reliable population figure sources that I can look at, presumably the one you are quoting, yes ?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,
Just one further question or clarification. You wrote :

the TC community numbered about the 18% of the Cypriot population, in the 1948 census, in the in 1960 census, as well in 1974!

Whilst of course I'll try to check and corroborate these figures, you stop at 1974. As fare as you are aware, can you tell me what the proportion was in 2004 and today ? Which do you think are the most reliable population figure sources that I can look at, presumably the one you are quoting, yes ?

No CopperLine, do take the procrustean “figures” of the Turkish propaganda which reduces the GCs to 600,000, pump up the TCs to 300,000 (i.e. everybody that legally or illegally currently lives in the "TRNC," including presumably the Turkish army as well,) when they want to explain to the international public opinion why Kofi Annan gave them 30% of Cyprus territory and a representation of 2:1 in the federal State’s apparatus and the government!

PS: Sener Levent and many other TC journalists claim that indigenous TCs are even less than 100,000, nowadays, rather than the 135,000 that is estimated based on cross analysis of the data in the last two censuses in the north!

[Kifeas]

As a side note to the above discussion, Murataga, in his aim of justifying why the TCs should keep the entire 36% of Cyprus that Turkey currently occupies illegally, in the event of an “agreed” partition; he said that according to his father, Mustafa Kemal, “one Turk equals the whole world,” therefore Turkish Cypriots are entitled to the whole of Cyprus, (and not only;) in which case they will be doing us a “favor” by settling down to only the current 36%! You see CopperLine, that's another way based on which to apportion the territory of Cyprus! Don't tell me you do not like it!

You see Murataga, I can be as much of a dirty nationalist as you are!

[bigOz]

As a side note to the above discussion, Murataga, in his aim of justifying why the TCs should keep the entire 36% of Cyprus that Turkey currently occupies illegally, in the event of an “agreed” partition; he said that according to his father, Mustafa Kemal, “one Turk equals the whole world,” therefore Turkish Cypriots are entitled to the whole of Cyprus, (and not only;) in which case they will be doing us a “favor” by settling down to only the current 36%! You see CopperLine, that's another way based on which to apportion the territory of Cyprus! Don't tell me you do not like it!

You see Murataga, I can be as much of a dirty nationalist as you are!

Well you've said it now Kifeas?

Discussing population ratios is not a healthy issue becausze nowhere in this world do people base their rights to land based on their ethnic numbers. The correct independent population census for 1960 can be found in:
http://www.country-studies.com/cyprus/population.html

But that does not change the factt that the TCs at the time still owned around 31 % of the land. Knowing you will not take my word for it here is another reputable independent link for you:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... la-(Cyprus)
that says

On 20 July 1974, the initial invasion secured the port city of Kyrenia/Girne, and by the 22nd, a road access to the Cypriot capital city of Nicosia, which secured the northern (Turkish) sector. The second stage of the operation (three weeks later) extended Turkish control out to cover the north-eastern two-thirds of the island, stretching from Kokkina/Erenköy in the west to Cape Apostolos Andreas in the east, then south to Louroujina/Akincilar. This latter move was justified by the Turkish forces on the grounds that as the Turkish Cypriots had ownership of 31% of the island before 1963 - and were forced off into enclaves of just 4% of the land in the wake of the intercommunal violence, taking control of over 30% of the north was seen as redressing those land losses.

As this move forced the eviction of Greek Cypriots to the southern sector of Cyprus, this has been seen as ethnic cleansing by the Greek Cypriot government. Today, only a few enclaved Greek Cypriots remain in the north.

If you click on the link and read the article you will see that the page is not biased in favour of TCs at all - and is not TC propaganda site!

But that is something I and many old GCs would have always known anyway. The point I am making is, it would be wrong to deny the legal ownership rights of any community based on their population ratio. You cannot show any legal or practical example in favour of any such claim.

[CopperLine]

Kifeas,
I'd like to ask the question again. I don't want inflated figures or propoganda figures or make believe figures, I just wanted a straight answer to a straight question :

As far as you are aware, can you tell me what the proportion was in 2004 and today ? Which do you think are the most reliable population figure sources that I can look at, presumably the one you are quoting, yes ?

The reason that I'm asking this in simple : if we can all agree on some basic data then we might get some where. If on the other hand any of us throws in information with the left hand and then takes it back or modifies it with the right hand then we're all wasting our time. One way to avoid that outcome is simply to show our cards straight up.

I'm not asking you for the source of the population figures as a trick question or to be sneaky, I just want to try and make sure that we're all singing from the same songsheet. So, to repeat, what are the sources of the various figures you quote, and does the source bring them up to date i.e, from 1974 to the present.

I'd be more than happy for others to say which figures they use and what their sources are. And once again, in the hope of reassuring you, I have not got an axe to grind here about population numbers.

[CopperLine]

Thanks BigOz, that's really helpful.

[Kifeas]

As a side note to the above discussion, Murataga, in his aim of justifying why the TCs should keep the entire 36% of Cyprus that Turkey currently occupies illegally, in the event of an “agreed” partition; he said that according to his father, Mustafa Kemal, “one Turk equals the whole world,” therefore Turkish Cypriots are entitled to the whole of Cyprus, (and not only;) in which case they will be doing us a “favor” by settling down to only the current 36%! You see CopperLine, that's another way based on which to apportion the territory of Cyprus! Don't tell me you do not like it!

You see Murataga, I can be as much of a dirty nationalist as you are!

Well you've said it now Kifeas?

Discussing population ratios is not a healthy issue becausze nowhere in this world do people base their rights to land based on their ethnic numbers. The correct independent population census for 1960 can be found in:
http://www.country-studies.com/cyprus/population.html

But that does not change the factt that the TCs at the time still owned around 31 % of the land. Knowing you will not take my word for it here is another reputable independent link for you:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... la-(Cyprus)
that says

On 20 July 1974, the initial invasion secured the port city of Kyrenia/Girne, and by the 22nd, a road access to the Cypriot capital city of Nicosia, which secured the northern (Turkish) sector. The second stage of the operation (three weeks later) extended Turkish control out to cover the north-eastern two-thirds of the island, stretching from Kokkina/Erenköy in the west to Cape Apostolos Andreas in the east, then south to Louroujina/Akincilar. This latter move was justified by the Turkish forces on the grounds that as the Turkish Cypriots had ownership of 31% of the island before 1963 - and were forced off into enclaves of just 4% of the land in the wake of the intercommunal violence, taking control of over 30% of the north was seen as redressing those land losses.

As this move forced the eviction of Greek Cypriots to the southern sector of Cyprus, this has been seen as ethnic cleansing by the Greek Cypriot government. Today, only a few enclaved Greek Cypriots remain in the north.

If you click on the link and read the article you will see that the page is not biased in favour of TCs at all - and is not TC propaganda site!

But that is something I and many old GCs would have always known anyway. The point I am making is, it would be wrong to deny the legal ownership rights of any community based on their population ratio. You cannot show any legal or practical example in favour of any such claim.

No bigOz, this is a mistaken figure that unfortunately is used by some GCs as well, presumably circulated out of Turkish sources! Nothing close to it is true! The correct figures are those handed in, since 1960, to the ROC by the British established land registry; and they are the ones accepted by the ECHR as evidence when examining the various Cyprus related cases, as well as accepted by the UN appointed mediators to take into consideration when they were drafting the various UN proposals since 1974, including the Annan plan! The RoC Land Registry Records have been published in the media in the past, and they clearly show that the TC land ownership was the 12.3% of the area of Cyprus, split approximately half and half between the south and the north.

Here is the table:

Code: Select all

Ownership in square Kilometers

                      GC      TC   State   Other      Total

Free Areas:        3.413     553   1.554      11      5.531
British Bases:       120      18      96      20        254
Under Occupation:  1.950     531     734       9      3.224
Buffer Zone:         159      29      52       2        242

Total:             5.642   1.131   2.436      42      9.251

[CopperLine]

Kifeas,
Interesting on the land information. So the source of your land figures is, just to be sure, the RoC Land Registry records ?

Any chance you could give the Url/weblink of the table you offer ?

And the population figures ?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,
I'd like to ask the question again. I don't want inflated figures or propoganda figures or make believe figures, I just wanted a straight answer to a straight question :

As far as you are aware, can you tell me what the proportion was in 2004 and today ? Which do you think are the most reliable population figure sources that I can look at, presumably the one you are quoting, yes ?

The reason that I'm asking this in simple : if we can all agree on some basic data then we might get some where. If on the other hand any of us throws in information with the left hand and then takes it back or modifies it with the right hand then we're all wasting our time. One way to avoid that outcome is simply to show our cards straight up.

I'm not asking you for the source of the population figures as a trick question or to be sneaky, I just want to try and make sure that we're all singing from the same songsheet. So, to repeat, what are the sources of the various figures you quote, and does the source bring them up to date i.e, from 1974 to the present.

I'd be more than happy for others to say which figures they use and what their sources are. And once again, in the hope of reassuring you, I have not got an axe to grind here about population numbers.

CopperLine, your question amounts to a nonsense insinuation! You know dead well that no one can give you guaranteed figures as to what happens in the occupied north, since the Turks are conducting their own cut and tailored "censuses," mixing everybody, settlers and TCs, as one stock, i.e. as "TRNC citizens!" They do not even accept international or UN committees to monitor the procedures, the methodology and the accuracy of the figures! As I said, it is estimated that the indigenous TCs, including those that legitimately may obtain Cypriot citizenship due to marriage, are roughly around 135 thousands, and the rest are foreigners (including mainland Turkish settlers,) however, Why do I have to look at the 2004, and not the 1960 or the 1974 figures! Do we GCs have to accept what transpired since 1974, if the place was under illegal occupation and the RoC had /has no means to know what happens there! What is known by fact, not now but since very many years now, is that both the GCs and the TCs have an almost identical population growth rate, which is around 1% per year! Furthermore, we also know (from sources in the host countries,) that since 1974 and up until recently, TCs have been emigrating from Cyprus at a higher rate than the GCs (almost a double rate!) In 1974, TCs were approximately 112,000! With 1% growth rate, today they would have been around 145-150 thousands. However, through analysis of the even unscientific and non-properly conducted “censuses” in the north, it is estimated that they are around 135,000! Even if they are 150,000, still they make only the 18.3% of the Cypriot people, even today! What is it that you want to insinuate? That we should count and calculate the illegal settlers from Turkey as TCs too, and then say that now they are 265,000, thus they are the 30% of "Cypriots!" Is this what you are trying to tell us all this time?

[CopperLine]

Kifeas,
It is a really simple question : what is the source of your figures and do they cover the period up to 2007 ?

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not taking the 'TC' figures as true. I'm just asking what the source is.

When people say "it's common knowledge' or "everyone knows X" it usually means that it's nothing of the sort and it's 'knowledge' that can't be corroborated.

If you haven't got a source, fine, no problem. You did have a source for the land claim, you said it was the RoC Land Registry. Fine, excellent. All I'm asking is for the source of the population figures.