Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

18% of the people, and your land ownership was 12.3% of Cyprus, or 17.5%

18% is the maximum your community is entitled, based on the demographics and the land ownership

I've never understood these kinds of figures or the assumption behind them. Perhaps someone can explain this to me ?

1. Are people saying that because in 1974 TCs made up 18% of the whole Cypriot population that they're 'entitled' to, or can claim no more than 18% of the total land area ? Or are these figures (for population) referring to 2007, or some other date ?

2. Is the basic assumption, regardless of the specific population figures, that entitlement/right to land - either as private property or as governed territory - is in fixed proportion to the relative population size of GCs and TCs (and other minorities) ?

[denizaksulu]

VP

Whats the problem with having 2 states where every Cypriot can decide where they wish to live accepting the administration of that state, this is what you want us to accept why do you have problems accepting it yourselves?

As I said before I don't have a problem with two states withn the nation Island of the Federal State of Cyprus. I would even push for the boundaries to stay as they are. With right of return for all refugees and demilitarisation of the Country.

The difference between your argument above and mine is that you advocate for a divided country. One that was not prior to 74. Yes there was problems in the 60 and of course 70 however, very little troubles before that since the Ottoman period when Turkish people immigrated to Cyprus.

We pretty much support the same kind of solution which many Gcs like Piratis and Kifeas do not as they wish to use their numerical strength to rule the whole island and reduce us to a minority pretty much like you are down under. The difference being that you chose to go live there as a foreigner but for me this is my country not a GC country like the south, this is where I belong and ı will not be reduced to feeling like a TC who live in the UK or Australia.

Since we are sick and tired reading your pervasive claims, we are ready to consider your 18% of territory and 18% of coastline map, even if this will include my hometown of Lapithos, so that we will start building that 12 meter wall along the boarder, and get rid of each other! Do it soon, otherwise you will continue your isolation and non-recognision, besides causing Turkey’s definite lose of it’s EU accession process!

You seem to think that your isolation threats carry water well Kifeas the 1960s were bad times for TCs but we have everything the rest is just inconveniences which we can tolerate and have done so for the last 33 years, do we want things to be better of course we do but so do the British in the Uk and the French in France, never over estimate the power you feel you have over us in trying to get us to submit to your ideology on how Cyprus should be run or look. If the majority of Tcs accepted 18% I would go along with them but you have yet to provide one example where the land distribution of a country was ever based on population ratios. You do not have to build a physical wall to place borders in peoples minds you are experts at ensuring they exist in the majority of TC minds by your own warped policies and treatment of what you yourselves claim are your citizens.

More absurdities from VP!

You do not get it VP! 18% is the maximum your community is entitled, based on the demographics and the land ownership (this was even less than that,) and is not a matter to be decided by any majority of the TCs! It is not in your right to decide via a referendum what percentage of the country you are entitled to! Asshole!

With endings to discussions like this, you will be getting suggestions that " if you want it, come and get it, if you dare" kind. Or are these niceties a sign of loss of argument?

Good day to you

[denizaksulu]

If the majority of Tcs accepted 18% I would go along with them but you have yet to provide one example where the land distribution of a country was ever based on population ratios.

How did Hatay become 100% Turkish in 1939 ?

Turks were only 40% of the population.

US power games in the Middle East
4 April 2007

Aanjar was in fact given by the French to the Armenians after they were forced to leave the city of Alexandretta in 1939 - the French allowed a phoney referendum there to let the Turks take over in the vain hope that Ankara would fight Hitler - and Aanjar's citizens hold their title deeds. But receiving threats that they are going to be ethnically cleansed from their homes is - for Armenians - a terrible reminder of their genocide at the hands of the Turks in 1915. Lebanon likes its industrious, highly educated Armenians who are also represented in parliament. But that such hatred could now touch them is a distressing witness to the fragility of the Lebanese state.

http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2371575.ece

Stop confusing the issue. Hatay is still not 100% Turkish. They are mostly Arab descent, so leave it alone. Lets sort out Cyprus before interwar Politics

[GreekForumer]

Stop confusing the issue. Hatay is still not 100% Turkish. They are mostly Arab descent, so leave it alone. Lets sort out Cyprus before interwar Politics

Hatay is today 100% sovereign territory of Turkey. The Armenians of Hatay, mostly survivors and descendants of survivors of the Genocide, were not offered a "Cyprus style" PROTECTIVE constitution at all. They were threatened and so they left. Greeks and Arabs left as well.

Turks claimed 100% of Hatay because they were a "60%" majority.

So I guess the rule is......

If Turks are in the majority, they can claim 100% of the territory.

And if Turks are a "numerical minority" they can claim twice their population percentage.


More about the Arabs of Hatay...

Until annexation, Turkish and Arabic co-existed for centuries; under republican policies, however, the use of Arabic began to decline. Less than a generation ago, a child of an Arabic-speaking family would start school unable to speak Turkish; these days, most children of Arabic families start school unable to speak much, if any, Arabic. Some Arabic speakers will deny being "Arab," a term that can be derogatory in Turkey. I will therefore refer to the community as "Arabic," reflecting the fact that the ancestral connection to the language is the common characteristic.

(3). Arabic is taught as a foreign language at university level elsewhere in Turkey; it is not available at Mustafa Kemal University, Hatay's only (state) university, even though it is less than a hundred kilometers from the Syrian border.

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publica ... fm?id=1103

[denizaksulu]

Stop confusing the issue. Hatay is still not 100% Turkish. They are mostly Arab descent, so leave it alone. Lets sort out Cyprus before interwar Politics

Hatay is today 100% sovereign territory of Turkey. The Armenians of Hatay, mostly survivors and descendants of survivors of the Genocide, were not offered a "Cyprus style" PROTECTIVE constitution at all. They were threatened and so they left. Greeks and Arabs left as well.

Turks claimed 100% of Hatay because they were a "60%" majority.

So I guess the rule is......

If Turks are in the majority, they can claim 100% of the territory.

And if Turks are a "numerical minority" they can claim twice their population percentage.


More about the Arabs of Hatay...

Until annexation, Turkish and Arabic co-existed for centuries; under republican policies, however, the use of Arabic began to decline. Less than a generation ago, a child of an Arabic-speaking family would start school unable to speak Turkish; these days, most children of Arabic families start school unable to speak much, if any, Arabic. Some Arabic speakers will deny being "Arab," a term that can be derogatory in Turkey. I will therefore refer to the community as "Arabic," reflecting the fact that the ancestral connection to the language is the common characteristic.

(3). Arabic is taught as a foreign language at university level elsewhere in Turkey; it is not available at Mustafa Kemal University, Hatay's only (state) university, even though it is less than a hundred kilometers from the Syrian border.

http://www.culturalsurvival.org/publica ... fm?id=1103

Yes? and what do you want us to do about it? You will have to wait till research is done on the topic so we can 'cut and paste' like you did. Give half a second.

[sweetie pie]

Viewpoint, in our case you are the "dog" as in comparison with what we have suffered (and still do) under the Turks, what you suffered from us is a drop in the ocean.

So what we want is from the dog to stop biting us.

So stop pretending to be the victim when in fact you have been and you continue to be the aggressor in Cyprus.

We do not demand from you to abandon your homeland or any of yours rights so we can feel safe. So why do you demand such things from us and you want to continue the war against us?

Actually I know why, because you want to keep the land you stole from us and forcefully gain on our loss. Just know that you can not cover your true reasons with lame excuses. Nobody is buying them.

Total rubbish, you can have all the land for all I care that is not my priority like it is yours. Whats important for me is being able to have say in my own future without feeling like the Pakistanis in the UK always at a disadvantage, leaving all the decisions purely to the GCs, safeguards are vital to ensure we are not pushed to one side and until a time you can understand and accept this reality we will continue to hold onto land like you hold onto recognition.

Since when has a Pakistani or for that matter any other race been at a disadvantage in the UK? This Country bends over backwards for any minority sometimes at the expense of its own Countrymen.

I do so agree with you. I know only too well the lengths the Govt has gone to be inclusive and to generate an environment that ethnic minorities in the UK can feel part of society. My job entailed ensuring inclusiveness. Even to funding interpreters for those who cannot speak English when attending NHS facilities. I wonder if Cyprus would commit the same resources for those not of Cypriot origin in this country???

The UK has Pakistani councillors, members of parliament etc etc. THIS is making those from ethnic minorities feel at a disadvantage??? We have people from ethnic minorities in the forces, police and the NHS would fall apart if it were not for my colleagues from ethnic minorities!!

Those WHO WISH to integrate into society can do so easily!

I think I will send my son who lives here with us and can speak Greek to see if he can get a job in the Cyprus police force!!! I wonder how far he would get???

[DT.]

Viewpoint, in our case you are the "dog" as in comparison with what we have suffered (and still do) under the Turks, what you suffered from us is a drop in the ocean.

So what we want is from the dog to stop biting us.

So stop pretending to be the victim when in fact you have been and you continue to be the aggressor in Cyprus.

We do not demand from you to abandon your homeland or any of yours rights so we can feel safe. So why do you demand such things from us and you want to continue the war against us?

Actually I know why, because you want to keep the land you stole from us and forcefully gain on our loss. Just know that you can not cover your true reasons with lame excuses. Nobody is buying them.

Total rubbish, you can have all the land for all I care that is not my priority like it is yours. Whats important for me is being able to have say in my own future without feeling like the Pakistanis in the UK always at a disadvantage, leaving all the decisions purely to the GCs, safeguards are vital to ensure we are not pushed to one side and until a time you can understand and accept this reality we will continue to hold onto land like you hold onto recognition.

Since when has a Pakistani or for that matter any other race been at a disadvantage in the UK? This Country bends over backwards for any minority sometimes at the expense of its own Countrymen.

I do so agree with you. I know only too well the lengths the Govt has gone to be inclusive and to generate an environment that ethnic minorities in the UK can feel part of society. My job entailed ensuring inclusiveness. Even to funding interpreters for those who cannot speak English when attending NHS facilities. I wonder if Cyprus would commit the same resources for those not of Cypriot origin in this country???

The UK has Pakistani councillors, members of parliament etc etc. THIS is making those from ethnic minorities feel at a disadvantage??? We have people from ethnic minorities in the forces, police and the NHS would fall apart if it were not for my colleagues from ethnic minorities!!

Those WHO WISH to integrate into society can do so easily!

I think I will send my son who lives here with us and can speak Greek to see if he can get a job in the Cyprus police force!!! I wonder how far he would get???

Should be allright...does he hold a Cypriot passport?

[Kifeas]

18% of the people, and your land ownership was 12.3% of Cyprus, or 17.5%

18% is the maximum your community is entitled, based on the demographics and the land ownership

I've never understood these kinds of figures or the assumption behind them. Perhaps someone can explain this to me ?

What is that you didn’t understand CopperLine?

You do not understand that the TC community numbered about the 18% of the Cypriot population, in the 1948 census, in the in 1960 census, as well in 1974! What is so difficult about it?

What else don’t you understand CopperLine? Don’t you understand that the TC private land ownership was the 12.3% of the total area of Cyprus, before 1974; or that this area constituted about 17.5% of the total private land, that is after one subtracts the state owned land! Is this what you do not understand?

1. Are people saying that because in 1974 TCs made up 18% of the whole Cypriot population that they're 'entitled' to, or can claim no more than 18% of the total land area ? Or are these figures (for population) referring to 2007, or some other date ?

The assumption behind this figure is that if we are to go for a partition, yes, that is how much territory the TC community is naturally entitled to! Is this also difficult to understand? You are asking if these figures are referring to 2007? No they are refereeing to the pre-1974 period! Do you want us to refer to the 2007 figures? Fine! Out of the 265,000 de facto residents of the illegally occupied north, some 130,000 are illegal colonisers brought in from Turkey, the occupying force, in violation of the Geneva Convention, and only some 135,000 (including those married with TCs and their off springs) are legitimate Cypriot citizens! Now, 135,000 TCs plus 670,000 GCs, this makes us a total of 805,000 people. Divide the 135,000 by the 805,000, and what do you get? You a get 16.77%, even less that the 18% of 1974 or 1960! Do you want to go by this figure, fine with me! The TCs, by today’s numbers, are only entitled to 16.8% of Cyprus in a partitioned country! Is it so difficult to understand this either?

Ps ...ps ...ps, CopperLine! I tell you a secret, before finalising your insinuation, just tell Turkey to first illegally transfer in Cyprus another 3.5 millions of settlers from the “mainland,” and then tell them to claim that they are entitled to the 82% of Cyprus territory, since they will be numbering 3.75 millions of Turkish “Cypriots,” vs. 670,000 of Greek Cypriots! Clever, isn’t it!

2. Is the basic assumption, regardless of the specific population figures, that entitlement/right to land - either as private property or as governed territory - is in fixed proportion to the relative population size of GCs and TCs (and other minorities) ?

Noooo CopperLine, this is not the only assumption one can make, in order to split Cyprus! I tell you another method, and see if you like it more than the one based on populations! Follow me!

The GCs, as a cultural entity, are the 82% of Cypriots! Correct? Correct!
The GCs, as a cultural entity, have an existing and perfectly traceable history in Cyprus, dating back to at least 3,500 years! Correct? Correct!

The TCs, as the other cultural entity of the island, are the 18% of Cypriots! Correct? Correct!
The TCs, as a cultural entity, have an existing history in Cyprus, dating back to some 420 years! Correct? Correct!

Now CopperLine, multiply the two sets of factors, add the two outcomes together, and then divide each one by the sum of the two!

i.e.
GCs = 3,500 x 82% = 2,870
TCs = 420 x 18% = 76

2,870 + 76 = 2,946

GCs = 2,870 / 2,946 = 97.4%
TCs = 76 / 2,946 = 2.6%

Conclusion:
Based on the weighted ratios of demographics x historical existence depth, the GCs are entitled to 97.4% of the island, and the TCs to only the 2.6%! Do you like this splitting method more than the other one? If you do, fine with me! Do you know any other one method? Please, do share it with us! We are all eager to listen to it!

[Kifeas]

VP

Whats the problem with having 2 states where every Cypriot can decide where they wish to live accepting the administration of that state, this is what you want us to accept why do you have problems accepting it yourselves?

As I said before I don't have a problem with two states withn the nation Island of the Federal State of Cyprus. I would even push for the boundaries to stay as they are. With right of return for all refugees and demilitarisation of the Country.

The difference between your argument above and mine is that you advocate for a divided country. One that was not prior to 74. Yes there was problems in the 60 and of course 70 however, very little troubles before that since the Ottoman period when Turkish people immigrated to Cyprus.

We pretty much support the same kind of solution which many Gcs like Piratis and Kifeas do not as they wish to use their numerical strength to rule the whole island and reduce us to a minority pretty much like you are down under. The difference being that you chose to go live there as a foreigner but for me this is my country not a GC country like the south, this is where I belong and ı will not be reduced to feeling like a TC who live in the UK or Australia.

Since we are sick and tired reading your pervasive claims, we are ready to consider your 18% of territory and 18% of coastline map, even if this will include my hometown of Lapithos, so that we will start building that 12 meter wall along the boarder, and get rid of each other! Do it soon, otherwise you will continue your isolation and non-recognision, besides causing Turkey’s definite lose of it’s EU accession process!

You seem to think that your isolation threats carry water well Kifeas the 1960s were bad times for TCs but we have everything the rest is just inconveniences which we can tolerate and have done so for the last 33 years, do we want things to be better of course we do but so do the British in the Uk and the French in France, never over estimate the power you feel you have over us in trying to get us to submit to your ideology on how Cyprus should be run or look. If the majority of Tcs accepted 18% I would go along with them but you have yet to provide one example where the land distribution of a country was ever based on population ratios. You do not have to build a physical wall to place borders in peoples minds you are experts at ensuring they exist in the majority of TC minds by your own warped policies and treatment of what you yourselves claim are your citizens.

More absurdities from VP!

You do not get it VP! 18% is the maximum your community is entitled, based on the demographics and the land ownership (this was even less than that,) and is not a matter to be decided by any majority of the TCs! It is not in your right to decide via a referendum what percentage of the country you are entitled to! Asshole!

With endings to discussions like this, you will be getting suggestions that " if you want it, come and get it, if you dare" kind. Or are these niceties a sign of loss of argument?

Good day to you

With endings to discussions like this, you will be getting suggestions that "we do dare, and we will come and get it one day, if not in your generation, definitely in the generation of your children; and tell them beforehand not blame us for it but only yourselves, for been the greedy, unreasonable and opportunistic people you once have been!" kind.

Or are these niceties a sign of loss of argument?

Good day to you!

[CopperLine]

Kifeas,
Thank you for your answr to my question. I asked the question not because I had made any assumptions but because I didn't understand. Thank you for the effort you made to answer and to be clear. I'll keep your explanation at the forefront of my thinking and will refer to it as the occasion arises in later posts.