Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

BIg Oz

YTou are referring to the mass killings by GCs in villages like Tochni, Maratha and Jaos. Why did the Mehmecik not catch the perpetrators and try them? These bums are walkign around free today. And how about equally bad acts on the other side, in Afania and Asha?

As for the atrocities of the Turkish army read the English papers about the treatment of civillians in Karpasia.

When an army decides to engage civillians it is no accident. It is deliberate and it has a goal behind it. The goal was to terrorise the population into leaving and not coming back. Which would also explain the disproportionate use of force like navy and air force when Cyprus had neither.

Now about the 30 000 Greek army personnel that must have come out of someone's fertile imagination. Mainland army troops had been withdrawn in 1968. The officers were mainland Greeks along with the Greek ELDYK people. WHich explains how the mainland casualties were around 80 only, while the Cypriots got hammered with thousands.

The alternative would have been for Turkey to hold its first salient, agreed in the first ceasefire and then return the island to the constitutional order foreseen by the 1960 agreements. That was the initial aim as stated by Ecevit. Instead we got a heavy handed imposition of partition and a 35 year stalemate with no end in sight.

You still did not read what bigOz wrote...The killing of TCs was going on after the first ceasefire. Can you not see that

[Nikitas]

Big Oz,

Then you saw the reels of british reporters getting caught in unmarked Turkish minefields, and the reels from the Yalousa with the hacked body of Androulla Christodoulou. There were no civillian clashes in Yalousa, only Mehmecik. And i am not mentioning this in a you did this we did that type of debate.

My point is that the ferocity of the attack starting on August 14 was deliberate to empty and keep empty the north of the island. The policy was partition all along. Which as cynical and as bad as union. With the one detail that PItsilos pointed out, most Greek Cypriots resisted Union, proving their faith in an independence Cyprus. We are till waiting for proof from the other side.

[Nikitas]

Zan,

With hundreds of helicopters at its disposal Turkey could have landed paratroopers on any part of the island. They could have rounded up the bums who were terrorising the civillians at Tochni, Maratha, Jaos. Instead they killed other, unrelated civillians, after August 14, presumably to even the score? So the bums who did the killing are still free, as are the people who did the killing at Afania and Asha and Palakythro. It was a big chance for Turkey to prove its sincerity for all Cypriots and it did not. It showed us a face that justified all the crap fed to us by the Greek chauvinists.

[Nikitas]

While we are on this subject, of the massacres at these villages, it is an even bet that the intelligence service sof both sides, Greek and Turkish, know the names of the people involved. They can release the names, even if they do not intend to prosecute them. It is a mystery why the names have not been released so we all get to know who these bums are.

[zan]

Zan,

With hundreds of helicopters at its disposal Turkey could have landed paratroopers on any part of the island. They could have rounded up the bums who were terrorising the civillians at Tochni, Maratha, Jaos. Instead they killed other, unrelated civillians, after August 14, presumably to even the score? So the bums who did the killing are still free, as are the people who did the killing at Afania and Asha and Palakythro. It was a big chance for Turkey to prove its sincerity for all Cypriots and it did not. It showed us a face that justified all the crap fed to us by the Greek chauvinists.

I am no great expert in war fare Nikitas but that just seems like something that is not done for being impossible...IMHO

[humanist]

Is the grafiti still up? or has the municipality washed it off? Cheers

Lemesiani pls feel free to coment.

[denizaksulu]

Pitsilos, with due respect we are talking numbers here. I doubt if anybody did a one by one body count. No one would claim 'killed two, twenty or two hundred.' Its a terrible situation. It is difficult to put accurate numbers to your statistics. If you are talking of 'digging' and referring to DNA etc, what is your point. Did they find exactly 4500 dead? So you can not use those numbers. Nobody is denying the KIA. But you can not quantify this and not be influenced by propaganda/ boasting and all that. Everybody asks for proof. What is the legal term (there must be a few lawyers around) is it Habeas Crpus? but even then you had those killed during the coup as Zan keeps on repeating.

POINT 1...well the coup was small in size with limited numbers...but the invasion was large in scale, so obviously you can deduct from this that the majority died during the invasion...i am amazed you can't see this...

POINT2...you think the coupists had time to mass grave all the people? while fighting the other GCS?...

POINT 3...the coupists were killing gcs...GROWN UPS and MALES...but when you have babies, kids, women and old people, thats something else...These people were not considered a threat to them...

Not like turkey were everyone was a threat and had to be eliminated or ethnically cleansed...and they had the time...after cleansing they had the time to bury them in mass graves...and noone was watching...

again a big thank you to all our compatriots for coming out to help put out the coup...

Hi Pitsilos, I was not Ignoring you. I had written a reasonable response when Cyprus-Forum could take the heat no longer and stopped functioning. My response got lost and what I wrote 2 hrs ago no longer in my memory. I will respond sooner or later.

[pitsilos]

Pitsilos, with due respect we are talking numbers here. I doubt if anybody did a one by one body count. No one would claim 'killed two, twenty or two hundred.' Its a terrible situation. It is difficult to put accurate numbers to your statistics. If you are talking of 'digging' and referring to DNA etc, what is your point. Did they find exactly 4500 dead? So you can not use those numbers. Nobody is denying the KIA. But you can not quantify this and not be influenced by propaganda/ boasting and all that. Everybody asks for proof. What is the legal term (there must be a few lawyers around) is it Habeas Crpus? but even then you had those killed during the coup as Zan keeps on repeating.

POINT 1...well the coup was small in size with limited numbers...but the invasion was large in scale, so obviously you can deduct from this that the majority died during the invasion...i am amazed you can't see this...

POINT2...you think the coupists had time to mass grave all the people? while fighting the other GCS?...

POINT 3...the coupists were killing gcs...GROWN UPS and MALES...but when you have babies, kids, women and old people, thats something else...These people were not considered a threat to them...

Not like turkey were everyone was a threat and had to be eliminated or ethnically cleansed...and they had the time...after cleansing they had the time to bury them in mass graves...and noone was watching...

again a big thank you to all our compatriots for coming out to help put out the coup...

No need for sarcasm either. We are discussing the value of any given number.
As to the loss of life you refer to that is all tragic.Unfortunately Innocents will continue to die all over the world, that is why we ought to avoid any future wars. I am not denying and never have denied any loss of life of innocent civilians among both TCs and GCs. Please dont tell me your lossess were greater than ours as my usual response to that is'you hit me with a hammer, and I will hit you back with a larger one. Sickening isnt it.

On a personal level I am sorry if you have some personal trgedy inflicted upon yourself or any other fellow Cypriot. Lets sort this mess out and pray it never happens again.
Regards
DA
Regards

I was trying to explain that greater losses of life were due to the invasion, since you all disputed the figures...i never said greater losses means greater whatever...I agree with you that the loss of life is very tragic and as you said never to be repeated...

Personally i haven't suffered any loss part from the fact that the first 10 years of the republic weren't easy...a lot of people migrated for greener pastures...me one of them...regrets?...who can say?...but thank you for your consideration...

Denizaksulu, i have been reading your posts and what impresses me the most, as a person that lived through it, as you let go everynow and then, is the fact that you haven't lost hope...this i admire...

[denizaksulu]

Deniz,

There are news reels from non Greek sources you can refer to as well as press reports. One such news reel that shows the ferocity (uncalled for and disproportionate) is from the BBC. It shows an armoured column of the Turkish army stopping, shelling an empty National Guard camp till it burns. A family in a car, fleeing south were on a road nearby and were shelled deliberately and killed. The cameras shows the Gurkas of the Dekelia base signalling to the tank commanders to stop shelling and the subsequent burial of the family. The distance from the tanks was about 100 meters, at midday, they knew they were shelling civilians. There were no soldiers around at that point. It was one of many recorded instances of terror tactics, indulged in deliberately under officer supervision. Like I said, to terrify peole into leaving and not coming back.

Response to Nikitas and Pitsilos: All the events mentioned if happened are sad and unnecessary. The points I was making in a lost response was actually regards to numbers and the response of the Turkish Army. The quick answer would be, 2you hit us with a hammer and you got hit back with a bigger hammer. When you'play' with fire expect to get burnt.

The simplistic argument that the Turkish army used excessive force must be seen from a military point of view. Without the use of the @heavy weoponry the battle would have been more protracted and eventually the casualty numbers would have been higher. From a military point of view the heavy weaponry would shorten the time to reach their objective. Whatever happened is tragic. I am sure that no Cypriot wanted any of this to happen. The ferocity of the army was necessary, also from the militaristic point of view to prevent the Greek army joining forces with the NG/GCs. If you remember they were fighting each other causing heavy casualties among themselves (Pres. Makarios speech).

To any Cypriot/ and all Cypriots, I would hand on heart say sorry for any loss of family and friends. No one wanted this to happen. I get annoyed everytime we are referred to the Foreign newsreels. We have seen what happened first hand thank you.

The numbers game has always been a no go. I do not deny that many Cypriots have lost there lives. It is difficult to separate those killed in the coup and those KIA. May they rest in peace. Those who commited atrocities, may they burn in Hell. Lets sort the mess we are in and pray the above events never take place again.

Regards

[T_C]

Amen!