Cyprus-Forum.com

[pitsilos]

Pitsilos, with due respect we are talking numbers here. I doubt if anybody did a one by one body count. No one would claim 'killed two, twenty or two hundred.' Its a terrible situation. It is difficult to put accurate numbers to your statistics. If you are talking of 'digging' and referring to DNA etc, what is your point. Did they find exactly 4500 dead? So you can not use those numbers. Nobody is denying the KIA. But you can not quantify this and not be influenced by propaganda/ boasting and all that. Everybody asks for proof. What is the legal term (there must be a few lawyers around) is it Habeas Crpus? but even then you had those killed during the coup as Zan keeps on repeating.

POINT 1...well the coup was small in size with limited numbers...but the invasion was large in scale, so obviously you can deduct from this that the majority died during the invasion...i am amazed you can't see this...

POINT2...you think the coupists had time to mass grave all the people? while fighting the other GCS?...

POINT 3...the coupists were killing gcs...GROWN UPS and MALES...but when you have babies, kids, women and old people, thats something else...These people were not considered a threat to them...

Not like turkey were everyone was a threat and had to be eliminated or ethnically cleansed...and they had the time...after cleansing they had the time to bury them in mass graves...and noone was watching...

again a big thank you to all our compatriots for coming out to help put out the coup...

[pitsilos]

well that brought out a reaction zan, not thats condone in anyway...unlike you condoning killings, raping and ethnically cleansing of your compatriots...but tell me how many tcs died during the coup, before the invasion?...that was resisted and rejected by the vast majority...

again thank you to all our compatriots that came out to fight against the coup...

ps...i am pretty certain that porkie at the time came out and said this is between the greeks...you know the same porkie that said in cyprus there is only greeks, turks and donkeys...wellI fall into the donkey category...what about you zan there are plenty of donkeys around...

Pitsilos, my friend. When you lose an argument you resort to personal name calling. This only emphasises your defeat. In the TC language we have an expression regarding 'pitsilos and his donkey'. I dont think it is very complimentary , but I would not deign to use it against my fellow Cypriots. You will have more credibility if you kept the issue civil.
Thanks

DA

hang on a minute i called myself a donkey for starters and the man looks like porky...I don't get your point about name calling...

and not mentioning you put up with that for 30 odd years...have you ever complained to porky about calling you a donkey?...why you complaining to me?

[zan]

Zan,

Turkey had made its point and achieved its stated aims- protecting the Turkish Cypriots and overturning the results of the coup by the end of Attila I.

Attila II was the final solution. Ecevit in interviews to the Turkish, Greek and foreing press regarded the imposed partition and ethnic cleansing a new solution. He clearly said "we killed 4500 people" referring to the Attila II operation that started on August 14 1974.

I do not know how old you are, but those of us who are old enough recall the talks in Vienna know how the Greek side requested several hours to consult re the ultimatum, but Turkey went ahead and took over the north of the island.

Look at newsreels of the time, there were no Greek forces in Karpasia, the defensive lines stopped around Famagusta. Who were the Turkish soldiers killing in Gialousa? Have a look at the foreing papers, not Greek, of that time. See what the glorious Mehmecik did in Yalousa. It was uncalled for terror to push people out and keep them out. Look at the harrowing photographs of the Greek girl stabbed hundreds of times by soldiers, whose officers let them rampage, deliberately.

It had nothing to do with safeguarding Turkish interests on the island. It had nothing to do with payback. It was out and out slaughter from the point that Famagusta fell till the capture of Apostolos Andreas. Out of all proportion to anything the Greek side had done ever before.

Come on Nikitas I am trying to be reasonable here and quantify the actual events. I have no interest in legalising murder and have already said that they went on but again you give me an example that you have no way of proving if it was done by the Turks or the coupists. I will not say that I can which and you cannot either. As I said about Ecevits quote..Could he have been responding to what was given out by the GCs at the time and I am sure you will agree that the game was still being played and blame was still being passed around like hot stones. Individual cases cannot overturn the real events and what was really going on. The Gcs got resolutions passecd in their favour for gods sake on the false numbers they gave of the missing. The political game went on regardless of how many people lay, still warm, on the battlefield. You are giving me numbers that do not coincide with what Makarios said so can we not just take it for granted that they were all lies in the heat of the moment and be realistic about this. The killing of TCS started the second Turkey launched its intervention...How is that possible if it was not allowed for. Surround the enclaves with soldiers and threaten the whole island with a coup and then expect nothing in return. They thought the threat of Russia would prevent Turkey from coming so what had they got in mind. Also knowing what happened in 63 was it so wrong to jump to conclusions...Come on for Christ sake

[Nikitas]

Deniz,

There are news reels from non Greek sources you can refer to as well as press reports. One such news reel that shows the ferocity (uncalled for and disproportionate) is from the BBC. It shows an armoured column of the Turkish army stopping, shelling an empty National Guard camp till it burns. A family in a car, fleeing south were on a road nearby and were shelled deliberately and killed. The cameras shows the Gurkas of the Dekelia base signalling to the tank commanders to stop shelling and the subsequent burial of the family. The distance from the tanks was about 100 meters, at midday, they knew they were shelling civilians. There were no soldiers around at that point. It was one of many recorded instances of terror tactics, indulged in deliberately under officer supervision. Like I said, to terrify peole into leaving and not coming back.

[zan]

Deniz,

There are news reels from non Greek sources you can refer to as well as press reports. One such news reel that shows the ferocity (uncalled for and disproportionate) is from the BBC. It shows an armoured column of the Turkish army stopping, shelling an empty National Guard camp till it burns. A family in a car, fleeing south were on a road nearby and were shelled deliberately and killed. The cameras shows the Gurkas of the Dekelia base signalling to the tank commanders to stop shelling and the subsequent burial of the family. The distance from the tanks was about 100 meters, at midday, they knew they were shelling civilians. There were no soldiers around at that point. It was one of many recorded instances of terror tactics, indulged in deliberately under officer supervision. Like I said, to terrify peole into leaving and not coming back.

This is difficult to dispute except for the fact that it has been used for purposes of propaganda and that this is what happens in a full blown war. Not excuses but realities that I am asking you to face up to. The fight was taken to the coupist and Pitsilos tells us that it was already over and you tell us it was not. I say it was not and history tells us it was not so where did Pits get his version. Unless we get this all in the open we cannot go forward. We cannot keep blaming Turkey for GC and Greek mistakes and we cannot just skim over it either. The right reasons for the right responses has to be found or there will always be bad feeling.

[bigOz]

Zan,
Turkey had made its point and achieved its stated aims- protecting the Turkish Cypriots and overturning the results of the coup by the end of Attila I.

Attila II was the final solution. Ecevit in interviews to the Turkish, Greek and foreing press regarded the imposed partition and ethnic cleansing a new solution. He clearly said "we killed 4500 people" referring to the Attila II operation that started on August 14 1974.

I do not know how old you are, but those of us who are old enough recall the talks in Vienna know how the Greek side requested several hours to consult re the ultimatum, but Turkey went ahead and took over the north of the island.

Look at newsreels of the time, there were no Greek forces in Karpasia, the defensive lines stopped around Famagusta. Who were the Turkish soldiers killing in Gialousa? Have a look at the foreing papers, not Greek, of that time. See what the glorious Mehmecik did in Yalousa. It was uncalled for terror to push people out and keep them out. Look at the harrowing photographs of the Greek girl stabbed hundreds of times by soldiers, whose officers let them rampage, deliberately.

It had nothing to do with safeguarding Turkish interests on the island. It had nothing to do with payback. It was out and out slaughter from the point that Famagusta fell till the capture of Apostolos Andreas. Out of all proportion to anything the Greek side had done ever before.

Nikitas, I was also around during the events and developments of 1974 and have a very good knowledge of it.

The fact that EOKA men and Sampson did not get the chance to kill any TCs during the few days of their dictatorship on the island does not amount to anything. We both know they were too busy killing off the opposition in the form of Makarios supporters.

As for photographs displayed of what "Mehmetcik" did - I do not believe a single one of them (especially where children are concerned) and they are not concrete evidence of anything. These were more likely the acts of the coupists whose genetic make up and previous actions in Cyprus proved that they are capable of such atrocities! You will not convince any TC that "Mehmetcik" can do such a thing because they have lived with 40,000 of them for 33 years...

As for Attila 2, We have been through this a million times many moons ago with the others. You want to see what the news reels of the time said? Take a good look at these my friend:

On 23rd July 1974 the Washington Post reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived." (also Times, Guardian, 23rd July 1974).

On 24th July 1974 France Soir reported: "The Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenceless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forests. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity."

Yes, it was "payback time" although I would never condone such actions. The "helpless villagers", mentioned above, of three villages were later discovered buried in mass graves! And you expect any TC to buy "Turkish army had no intentions of helping the TCs in the area"? I assure you, you will not convince many with that line of argument...

Note the dates in above news and remember second Attila was on 14 August!

Furthermore you complain, Ecevit would not wait for few days for a reply. What was it that needed few days of thinking? Few days to allow Greek mainland to reinforce their army which was already well above 30,000 at the time? Give the other side a chance to continue the war - not that they would have succeeded in getting rid of the Turkish military once they sat foot on the island anyway - but it would have probably caused a lot more deaths on both sides especially of GCs. I think someone has already pointed out to this.

Many nations die in their hundreds of thousands to escape the clutches of Juntas and regain democracy. I think Greece got theirs back very lightly due to the Turkish invasion of Cyprus and the unfortunate deaths of few thousand GCs. The fact that there had been no wars between the two communities for more than 3 decades and both the Greek side of Cyprus and Greece have been economically prospering since then is a testament to what happened as being the right thing at the time. My question to you would be:

What was the alternative? and more importantly, in the absence of any interest from UK, USA and Europe, and UN to interfere in anything that was happening in Cyprus at the time, what would have been the future of both Cyprus and Greece? Never mind joining the EU, both could still be living under some kind of military dictatorship or undemocratic government.

[humanist]

Boys and girls the reality is that both sides suffered and both sides killed, the rest is history really. Our leaders are meeting tomorrrow and I think what is important is that we ask them to look at issues that may change the status quo. So write up your lists instead. United we can change the future of Cyprus for a better world. We cannot change the past. What is done is done.

[denizaksulu]

Pitsilos, with due respect we are talking numbers here. I doubt if anybody did a one by one body count. No one would claim 'killed two, twenty or two hundred.' Its a terrible situation. It is difficult to put accurate numbers to your statistics. If you are talking of 'digging' and referring to DNA etc, what is your point. Did they find exactly 4500 dead? So you can not use those numbers. Nobody is denying the KIA. But you can not quantify this and not be influenced by propaganda/ boasting and all that. Everybody asks for proof. What is the legal term (there must be a few lawyers around) is it Habeas Crpus? but even then you had those killed during the coup as Zan keeps on repeating.

POINT 1...well the coup was small in size with limited numbers...but the invasion was large in scale, so obviously you can deduct from this that the majority died during the invasion...i am amazed you can't see this...

POINT2...you think the coupists had time to mass grave all the people? while fighting the other GCS?...

POINT 3...the coupists were killing gcs...GROWN UPS and MALES...but when you have babies, kids, women and old people, thats something else...These people were not considered a threat to them...

Not like turkey were everyone was a threat and had to be eliminated or ethnically cleansed...and they had the time...after cleansing they had the time to bury them in mass graves...and noone was watching...

again a big thank you to all our compatriots for coming out to help put out the coup...

No need for sarcasm either. We are discussing the value of any given number.
As to the loss of life you refer to that is all tragic.Unfortunately Innocents will continue to die all over the world, that is why we ought to avoid any future wars. I am not denying and never have denied any loss of life of innocent civilians among both TCs and GCs. Please dont tell me your lossess were greater than ours as my usual response to that is'you hit me with a hammer, and I will hit you back with a larger one. Sickening isnt it.

On a personal level I am sorry if you have some personal trgedy inflicted upon yourself or any other fellow Cypriot. Lets sort this mess out and pray it never happens again.
Regards
DA
Regards

[Nikitas]

BIg Oz

YTou are referring to the mass killings by GCs in villages like Tochni, Maratha and Jaos. Why did the Mehmecik not catch the perpetrators and try them? These bums are walkign around free today. And how about equally bad acts on the other side, in Afania and Asha?

As for the atrocities of the Turkish army read the English papers about the treatment of civillians in Karpasia.

When an army decides to engage civillians it is no accident. It is deliberate and it has a goal behind it. The goal was to terrorise the population into leaving and not coming back. Which would also explain the disproportionate use of force like navy and air force when Cyprus had neither.

Now about the 30 000 Greek army personnel that must have come out of someone's fertile imagination. Mainland army troops had been withdrawn in 1968. The officers were mainland Greeks along with the Greek ELDYK people. WHich explains how the mainland casualties were around 80 only, while the Cypriots got hammered with thousands.

The alternative would have been for Turkey to hold its first salient, agreed in the first ceasefire and then return the island to the constitutional order foreseen by the 1960 agreements. That was the initial aim as stated by Ecevit. Instead we got a heavy handed imposition of partition and a 35 year stalemate with no end in sight.

[bigOz]

Deniz,

There are news reels from non Greek sources you can refer to as well as press reports. One such news reel that shows the ferocity (uncalled for and disproportionate) is from the BBC. It shows an armoured column of the Turkish army stopping, shelling an empty National Guard camp till it burns. A family in a car, fleeing south were on a road nearby and were shelled deliberately and killed. The cameras shows the Gurkas of the Dekelia base signalling to the tank commanders to stop shelling and the subsequent burial of the family. The distance from the tanks was about 100 meters, at midday, they knew they were shelling civilians. There were no soldiers around at that point. It was one of many recorded instances of terror tactics, indulged in deliberately under officer supervision. Like I said, to terrify peole into leaving and not coming back.

I do not know if it is the same one but the only news reel I saw of BBC showing the Turkish tank column advancing towards Famagusta wasa when one of their reporters was actually travelling with them. At one point, there was shell fire at the tanks froman unknown source. The tank in front of the reporter had its turret revolve through 360 degrees whilst the reporter explained "These are NATO tanks that have a built in radar that detects the source/location of fire coming at them". It then showed the turret turning some more and stopping at a specific direction. The angle of turret was lowered and one shell was fired. Subsequently, the column carried on moving with the reporter saying "The shelling seems to have stoppeed so I can only imagine they destroyed the source".

The same news reel continued with another BBC reporter inside the perimeter of Dhikelia Base. He was observing the column of Turkish tanks commenting "The Turkish tanks would not dare fire atthe bases because it would mean declaring war on the British". Few seconds later the picture was showing the ground with shouts of panic "they are firing at us", "keep your heads down", "someone radio the b******s this is a British Sovereign base" etc. Some moments later the reporter started to observe the tanks in camera moving along and saying "a British commander has managed to contact the Turkish counterpart and informed them they were shelling a British base. It seems to have worked!".