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[pitsilos]

Kikapu, it is pointless trying to argue with Zan! Believe me!

I know Kifeas, but Zan makes a good "Political Punch Bag" to spar with before taking on the "heavy weights".

You could become Zan's "cut man" to relieve the pressure from his swollen eyes.

Then again, having a sharp object in your hands and Zan almost blinded by his swollen eyes could be very dangerous.......for Zan.

Zan, I think you miss the point being made. ONLY Greeks are allowed to kill GCs. Thats ok and does not count in their statistics..
As for you sweetheart of sweethearts....You are trying to blur the edges again just like the Greek propagandists love to do....How about a one straight answer to a proper question. You have no idea what you are saying and I will tell you why.


You told BigOz that he was mad for thinking that not a shot would be fired by the coupists and now you are using the same line in a different way to explain why the Turkish intervention was an invasion as soon as the first shot was fired. Try being honest for once in your life and you will not get so mixed up and show yourself up like this. Heavyweight hahahahahaha! You have not made a single point that has not fallen apart under scrutiny and you boast empty boasts like GR does... Too much TV I am afraid.

Now if you want to carry on this thing...[size=18]WAS Turkey right to intervene and did they save the lives of your relatives both TC and GC,[/size] in my opinion or not. Answer the question and then we can move on to the next point....Of course you already know what is coming so that is why you do not want to continue...Be brave kardesim...Be brave...It's only Zan the lightweight...Surely you can handle him......[/list]

Hello Zan,

What is it that's bothering you now. You asked the question and I answered it, but you are not happy with the answer, so you are asking me the same question again. So which part of my answer or my conversation with BigOz, that you did not understand. If you are not ever going to accept others views, than why are you asking these questions. Do all the answers has to fit in your "acceptance box" to be valid, or else they are discarded as rubbish.?? I don't think I remember you accepting anything from others when it comes to Cyprus Problems, except from fellow Partitionist and our good friend Bananiot, that fits in with your version of events. Unless you become a little flexible, I will not be able to see things from another angle, am I.??

Zan , we did I think sometime ago establish that some 7 or 8 years prior to the Turkish invasion the number of T/Cs or G/Cs killed in intercommunal conflict amounted to a zero . Turkeys invasion caused the death thousands of Cypriots as well as creating tow hundred thousand refugees , this nonsense that Turkey intervened and saved lives is total crap.

What I think we established was that the TCs were still living under GC dictatorship and the the Coupists were the ones that that started the killing before Turkey made it's move. I really don't understand where you are coming from Miltiades. How can you sit there and deny the chain of events. Turkeys actions caused more deaths..I admit that but what was happening before and what would have happened after the coupist got complete control of the island and settled in. There would not be a TC left on the island. That I am sure of.

Zan, I think you miss the point being made. ONLY Greeks are allowed to kill GCs. Thats ok and does not count in their statistics..

thats right...and only cypriots are allowed to kill cypriots...so why you whining?

i want to know how these diggings are going...why is your site not coming forward with info?...i just wonder some times...oh maybe dogs don't deserve it...ain't that right denizaksulu?

[denizaksulu]

Zan, read past statements by Bulent Ecevit re Attila II- He said clearly that if the Greek side had agreed to the ultimatum delivered on August 13 in Vienna then "we would not have had to ill 4500 people" How many of those 4500 were civillians? Read the Sunday Times Insight reports of September 1974 titled "Something terrible has happened here" and see what they conclude.

There was a disproportionate ferocity in that Attila II operation, and in a disciplined army it reasonably leads to the conclusion that it was deliberate, it was not simply soldiers getting out of control. Mehmet Ali Birad has said that Attila II was a mistake.

The ferocity was out of all proportion to any provocation. Using air and sea power against a country that had neither, when less force would have accomplished the same goals with much less loss of life was a message. Cant you see it?

Nkitas, all you say is tragic. But in military terms what you would suggest (less force) would have prolonged the situation with the resultant more loss of life. Then also militarily that would have given the Greek/GC forces to regroup/re-unite. It is easy to have a blinkered view of the 1974 events. You have to be more realistic that what you suggest. You do not have a military mind. Mehmet Ali Birand , a great writer, did not like what he saw because nobody likes the sight of war. It is utterly inhuman. Back to blaming the Coupistd again. Was that the full circle?

[pitsilos]

Good point Pitsilos,

A fact often glossed over is the resistance by Greek Cypriots to the coup, and the fighting raging until the Friday night before the invasion on Staurday morning. Obviously Greek Cypriots were resisting the coup, and enforced Enosis. But that is so easily overlooked. But it is so RELEVANT.

yeah and instead of coming out to fight with us...they invaded and ethnically cleansed us...

again a big thank you to our compatriots...

[zan]

Zan, read past statements by Bulent Ecevit re Attila II- He said clearly that if the Greek side had agreed to the ultimatum delivered on August 13 in Vienna then "we would not have had to ill 4500 people" How many of those 4500 were civillians? Read the Sunday Times Insight reports of September 1974 titled "Something terrible has happened here" and see what they conclude.

There was a disproportionate ferocity in that Attila II operation, and in a disciplined army it reasonably leads to the conclusion that it was deliberate, it was not simply soldiers getting out of control. Mehmet Ali Birad has said that Attila II was a mistake.

The ferocity was out of all proportion to any provocation. Using air and sea power against a country that had neither, when less force would have accomplished the same goals with much less loss of life was a message. Cant you see it?

So how many people did the coupists kill and was Ecevit just responding to the numbers that were given out by the Greeks. These are questions that we will probably not know the answers to but lets get some perspective on the whole thing. The coupists were killing thousands of people and Makarios said as much in his speech...It does not take a great mind..And that includes mine...To see the numbers that you are quoting are all wrong and it is done so that Turkey gets all the blame. When you can see that and accept the fact of where the TC s were...Which was surrounded by hostile forces that waited for the right moment to start massacring them...And why Turkey had to move in. The fact that they had interests in the island as well does not take anything away from the situation.

[zan]

There would not be a TC left on the island. That I am sure of.

i am gonna call you the oracle...can you also tell me the lucky numbers for this week lotto?...

you seemed certain the coupists would have won....but this is far from the truth...for a start the coup was rejected and defeated before turkey entered the foray, by the gcs...this little detail you seemed to leave out every single time...

and by rejecting the coup, the gcs got the wrong end of the stick...they were ethnically cleansed from the homes...

and this is the big thank you we get from zan...

i wonder if the whole population was with the coupists....what would have been the outcome...do you know?...zan?...fortunately for the tcs the vast majority wasn't aligned with the coupists...as you are lead to believe...

and needless to say what happens when you assume...

Really....Are you not fed up with being fed shit...Has your belly not had enough????? Samson was killing TCs as Turkey was intervening...How were the coupists already defeated...I can't find a smiley that has it's head shaking but......

[zan]

Good point Pitsilos,

A fact often glossed over is the resistance by Greek Cypriots to the coup, and the fighting raging until the Friday night before the invasion on Staurday morning. Obviously Greek Cypriots were resisting the coup, and enforced Enosis. But that is so easily overlooked. But it is so RELEVANT.

yeah and instead of coming out to fight with us...they invaded and ethnically cleansed us...

again a big thank you to our compatriots...

What colour were the coupists wearing and what colour were the Friendly GCs wearing my friend....How many of the coupists were arrested and tried for war crimes........How many bullets were flying in the direction of the Turks.....Why did Makarios not implement the Zurich agreement and let the TCs take their rightful seats and then talk about constitutional change as democratic countries do....

[denizaksulu]

Pitsilos, with due respect we are talking numbers here. I doubt if anybody did a one by one body count. No one would claim 'killed two, twenty or two hundred.' Its a terrible situation. It is difficult to put accurate numbers to your statistics. If you are talking of 'digging' and referring to DNA etc, what is your point. Did they find exactly 4500 dead? So you can not use those numbers. Nobody is denying the KIA. But you can not quantify this and not be influenced by propaganda/ boasting and all that. Everybody asks for proof. What is the legal term (there must be a few lawyers around) is it Habeas Crpus? but even then you had those killed during the coup as Zan keeps on repeating.

[pitsilos]

well that brought out a reaction zan, not thats condone in anyway...unlike you condoning killings, raping and ethnically cleansing of your compatriots...but tell me how many tcs died during the coup, before the invasion?...that was resisted and rejected by the vast majority...

again thank you to all our compatriots that came out to fight against the coup...

ps...i am pretty certain that porkie at the time came out and said this is between the greeks...you know the same porkie that said in cyprus there is only greeks, turks and donkeys...wellI fall into the donkey category...what about you zan there are plenty of donkeys around...

[Nikitas]

Zan,

Turkey had made its point and achieved its stated aims- protecting the Turkish Cypriots and overturning the results of the coup by the end of Attila I.

Attila II was the final solution. Ecevit in interviews to the Turkish, Greek and foreing press regarded the imposed partition and ethnic cleansing a new solution. He clearly said "we killed 4500 people" referring to the Attila II operation that started on August 14 1974.

I do not know how old you are, but those of us who are old enough recall the talks in Vienna know how the Greek side requested several hours to consult re the ultimatum, but Turkey went ahead and took over the north of the island.

Look at newsreels of the time, there were no Greek forces in Karpasia, the defensive lines stopped around Famagusta. Who were the Turkish soldiers killing in Gialousa? Have a look at the foreing papers, not Greek, of that time. See what the glorious Mehmecik did in Yalousa. It was uncalled for terror to push people out and keep them out. Look at the harrowing photographs of the Greek girl stabbed hundreds of times by soldiers, whose officers let them rampage, deliberately.

It had nothing to do with safeguarding Turkish interests on the island. It had nothing to do with payback. It was out and out slaughter from the point that Famagusta fell till the capture of Apostolos Andreas. Out of all proportion to anything the Greek side had done ever before.

[denizaksulu]

well that brought out a reaction zan, not thats condone in anyway...unlike you condoning killings, raping and ethnically cleansing of your compatriots...but tell me how many tcs died during the coup, before the invasion?...that was resisted and rejected by the vast majority...

again thank you to all our compatriots that came out to fight against the coup...

ps...i am pretty certain that porkie at the time came out and said this is between the greeks...you know the same porkie that said in cyprus there is only greeks, turks and donkeys...wellI fall into the donkey category...what about you zan there are plenty of donkeys around...

Pitsilos, my friend. When you lose an argument you resort to personal name calling. This only emphasises your defeat. In the TC language we have an expression regarding 'pitsilos and his donkey'. I dont think it is very complimentary , but I would not deign to use it against my fellow Cypriots. You will have more credibility if you kept the issue civil.
Thanks

DA