Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

CopperLine,

You are being totally disingenuous with your explanation on the terms of "Occupation", because no one has claimed that the TC's living in the "TRNC" are under occupation much like the Palestinians, but the 37% of Cyprus which makes up the territory of the "TRNC" is under occupation from the rest of Cyprus, which is the same as the occupation of the land of Palestine. It is also like the Iraqis and the Afghans are not under American Occupation, however, Iraq and Afghanistan are. It just so happens, it is only 37% of Cyprus is under Turkish Occupation and not the whole island..

[denizaksulu]

zan, is this where you get your beer muscles from feeling all tuff, The Cyprus-Forum. Watch your mouth, you thief peice-of-sh_t with no job just living off stolen refugee land. You sit there all day looking to challenge the unchallengable to civilized people. You freak.

Temper temper. Tut tut, tut

[denizaksulu]

And, to continue on this point about the 'feel' of occupation : it is a matter of policy and historical precedent that one of the chief objectives of occupying armies has been to make sure that the occupied population are reminded 24hours a day, 7 days a week, that they are being occupied, that the army's presence is obvious, permanent and unavoidable. Curiously, the army presence in TRNC - at least what I have seen over a long period - is pretty low-key, it is not obvious, it is avoidable. Not so in Lebanon, Israel, etc ...

CopperLine, do you mean to say that the 200,000 GCs, i.e. the 80% of the inhabitants of the occupied north, that have been ethnically cleansed in 1974 and cannot have proper or even any access to their properties, churches, towns and villages for 33 years now, are not reminded 24/7 that there is occupation in their country??? Do they need anything else to remind them of the fact of the occupation, besides living and experiencing the consequences every minute of their lives, ever since? Or you count only the TCs and the settlers from Turkey as the "proper" inhabitants of the north, since they are the only ones existing there after the ethnic cleansing by Turkey?

Take a drive from north Nicosia to west, towards Morfou, and then northwest towards Kyrenia, and you will count at least 25 military bases /camps, only along the roads. Do you want me to show you the Google earth pictures of all the Turkish military bases in the north, so that you can be convinced of the fact that almost 10% of the occupied territory is a military zone! Do you know of any other country with such a proportion of land been kept for military purposes?

The whole of Israel? comes to mind.

[CopperLine]

Kikapu,

You wrote that I was being

disingenuous with your explanation on the terms of "Occupation", because no one has claimed that the TC's living in the "TRNC" are under occupation much like the Palestinians

But did you actually read my reply to Kifeas where I said :

Just to be sure, Kifeas : I am not comparing Cyprus and Palestine.

So, like Kifeas, you take issue with something that I never said. Well if you've got nothing better to do than set up straw figures to easily knock them down, then that's your prerogative.

In any case, whether 37% or 97% under occupation is neither here nor there since the original contention was the visibility and effect of being under an army of occupation. My first simple, and surely uncontroversial point, is that being directly under the boot does not have the same effect as being told about what it is like to be under the boot. My second, and possibly more controversial point was that, my impression of the occupying army in the north is nothing like that of other armies of occupation. Indeed it is hardly noticeable in the street.

Perhaps it is for others to say what their experience or impression is of the TMF (Turkish Military Forces) or of other places where there are armies of occupation.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

You wrote that I was being

disingenuous with your explanation on the terms of "Occupation", because no one has claimed that the TC's living in the "TRNC" are under occupation much like the Palestinians

But did you actually read my reply to Kifeas where I said :

Just to be sure, Kifeas : I am not comparing Cyprus and Palestine.

So, like Kifeas, you take issue with something that I never said. Well if you've got nothing better to do than set up straw figures to easily knock them down, then that's your prerogative.

In any case, whether 37% or 97% under occupation is neither here nor there since the original contention was the visibility and effect of being under an army of occupation. My first simple, and surely uncontroversial point, is that being directly under the boot does not have the same effect as being told about what it is like to be under the boot. My second, and possibly more controversial point was that, my impression of the occupying army in the north is nothing like that of other armies of occupation. Indeed it is hardly noticeable in the street.

Perhaps it is for others to say what their experience or impression is of the TMF (Turkish Military Forces) or of other places where there are armies of occupation.

Please CopperLine, stop giving us bunch of "Double talk". The point is, 37% of Cyprus is denied to the majority of Cypriots because of the divide created by the Invading Force which then became the Occupation Force. Those who are denied access to the 37% of their country, do not give a Rats Ass just how exactly the Occupation is carried out in the 37% of the country, because to them, it might as well be just like the Palestine. Stop trying to split hair. Clinton tried this with his famous what the definition of "is" is. Actually, Clinton was correct in what he said based on the question that was asked to him, but sounded bad all the same, and your explanation on occupation is also failing badly I'm afraid.

[Get Real!]

By the way I'd echo the post of the person who said that the TRNC does not feel like a place under occupation. I go to and fro across the Green Line frequently and, bar the occasional hassle you get from border police/customs right around the world, this does not feel like heavy military occupation of the kind I've witnessed in say Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, or even Northern Ireland, divided Germany and the Basque region in times past.

You DID compare the prominent military Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gazza with the situation in the occupied region of Cyprus but the two cannot be compared due to the differing nature of the conflicts; "Palestine" is not contiguous territory but the "TRNC" is (with the exception of tiny Kokinna) so military presence takes on a different formation in Cyprus and yields the "Green Line" as opposed to the many roadblocks and sealed off Palestinian neighborhoods by Israelis.

Perhaps east/west Berlin is a better comparison for Cyprus.

[Kikapu]

Just because YOU keep saying that you are impartial does not make it so mate. Have you really looked at your posts and maybe even wondered why all but one other Cypriot takes you to task every time you speak. I think you are totally partial and the comments show that I am right. You have all the TCs saying you are wrong and the GCs saying you are right...Again...Any bells ringing in your head????


You want to be impartial then take what I said and not what you think I said and respond accordingly. Turkey WITHOUT DOUBT saved the lives of many Cypriots and the crying GCs that thanked god that Turkey had done so tells that tail. You want to mix up the point of whether they then should have handed the island back over to Greek control is another matter all together and on that point I say that they should not have. The Makarios government had pulled of what they wanted in 1963 and got the GC government recognised as the sole government of Cyprus and in 1974 they were not prepared to take back power as the Zurich agreement stood in its entirety. That is the facts of the situation and you cannot change that. There was no legitimate government in situ to hand back to as far as the TCs were concerned...If you are daft enough to accept that from the GCs then that is your problem and does nothing to my statement that you took exception too but justifies it further. You really have bought into the Greek propaganda and or part of it. As someone else said 'Try thinking like a TC for a moment".
We as Tcs have seen the other side and thought about those people that were displaced and we sat in our English homes in shitty English weather thinking about our own as well when they were dieing from starvation and disease while the illegal government that tried to kill us in the first place was taking over the country. I have told you before that you have the option of living as a GC where ever you like and you chose the South...Be happy and shut the fuck up about what my people went through. We know what we went through and up until the A plan we were prepared to go against those that advised us that the GCs don't want to share power with us and the Zurich agreement is the last thing on their mind...We were wrong because that is exactly the case. Some are still trying to work towards a unified Cyprus under the Zurich agreement and they have nothing but respect from me but you just want to hand over power to our aggressors and see us put into a position where we have no say in determining our future...Again Fuck you!!!!!!

Oh Zan, why do you even bother with your long explanations about something that is totally unrelated to what you said originally and what I responded to. Just exactly what would have been my explanation to satisfy you and other TC's on what I wrote, that would make me impartial. I wrote as to what happened, and even though you do not dispute the details, you object it to be written. I was not adding anything to the mix as you have done with your above post. You said "There is no need to be ungrateful to the people that saved our lives...Gcs as well as Tcs". So what you were saying was that the GC's were ungrateful from being saved by Turkey. Well, I asked the GC's to step forward and tell us if they agree with you, and so far, they have not. This was a subject matter between Turkey and the GC's, so I do not know why the TC's all jumped up and down with their comments. People are free to say what ever they want Zan, but I do not follow the "code of silence" as most TC's tends to do when it comes to the Cyprus issue. I always thought, that the "code of silence" was only reserved for "bad cops".

[Kifeas]

Kikapu,

You wrote that I was being

disingenuous with your explanation on the terms of "Occupation", because no one has claimed that the TC's living in the "TRNC" are under occupation much like the Palestinians

But did you actually read my reply to Kifeas where I said :

Just to be sure, Kifeas : I am not comparing Cyprus and Palestine.

So, like Kifeas, you take issue with something that I never said. Well if you've got nothing better to do than set up straw figures to easily knock them down, then that's your prerogative.

In any case, whether 37% or 97% under occupation is neither here nor there since the original contention was the visibility and effect of being under an army of occupation. My first simple, and surely uncontroversial point, is that being directly under the boot does not have the same effect as being told about what it is like to be under the boot. My second, and possibly more controversial point was that, my impression of the occupying army in the north is nothing like that of other armies of occupation. Indeed it is hardly noticeable in the street.

Perhaps it is for others to say what their experience or impression is of the TMF (Turkish Military Forces) or of other places where there are armies of occupation.

Please CopperLine, stop giving us bunch of "Double talk". The point is, 37% of Cyprus is denied to the majority of Cypriots because of the divide created by the Invading Force which then became the Occupation Force. Those who are denied access to the 37% of their country, do not give a Rats Ass just how exactly the Occupation is carried out in the 37% of the country, because to them, it might as well be just like the Palestine. Stop trying to split hair. Clinton tried this with his famous what the definition of "is" is. Actually, Clinton was correct in what he said based on the question that was asked to him, but sounded bad all the same, and your explanation on occupation is also failing badly I'm afraid.

It is actually called "paying lip service" to the Turkish thesis and the "TRNC!" Nothing new!

Obviously, the fact that the entire GC population were ethnically cleansed from the north and therefore -since the opposing element doesn’t exist as a threat "behind the lines," there is also no need for a continual display of military force in the streets; is not a significant or a determining factor in CopperLine’s equation and analysis! After all, we are only interested in paying “lip service!”

As a side note, if Turkey, after ethnically cleansing the entire opposition from the area under its occupation, needs the stationing of 40,000 troops to maintain it; one can only wonder how many more thousands it would have needed, should an ethnic cleansing did not occur and the entire GC population would have been left behind the lines.

[Kifeas]

Just because YOU keep saying that you are impartial does not make it so mate. Have you really looked at your posts and maybe even wondered why all but one other Cypriot takes you to task every time you speak. I think you are totally partial and the comments show that I am right. You have all the TCs saying you are wrong and the GCs saying you are right...Again...Any bells ringing in your head????


You want to be impartial then take what I said and not what you think I said and respond accordingly. Turkey WITHOUT DOUBT saved the lives of many Cypriots and the crying GCs that thanked god that Turkey had done so tells that tail. You want to mix up the point of whether they then should have handed the island back over to Greek control is another matter all together and on that point I say that they should not have. The Makarios government had pulled of what they wanted in 1963 and got the GC government recognised as the sole government of Cyprus and in 1974 they were not prepared to take back power as the Zurich agreement stood in its entirety. That is the facts of the situation and you cannot change that. There was no legitimate government in situ to hand back to as far as the TCs were concerned...If you are daft enough to accept that from the GCs then that is your problem and does nothing to my statement that you took exception too but justifies it further. You really have bought into the Greek propaganda and or part of it. As someone else said 'Try thinking like a TC for a moment".
We as Tcs have seen the other side and thought about those people that were displaced and we sat in our English homes in shitty English weather thinking about our own as well when they were dieing from starvation and disease while the illegal government that tried to kill us in the first place was taking over the country. I have told you before that you have the option of living as a GC where ever you like and you chose the South...Be happy and shut the fuck up about what my people went through. We know what we went through and up until the A plan we were prepared to go against those that advised us that the GCs don't want to share power with us and the Zurich agreement is the last thing on their mind...We were wrong because that is exactly the case. Some are still trying to work towards a unified Cyprus under the Zurich agreement and they have nothing but respect from me but you just want to hand over power to our aggressors and see us put into a position where we have no say in determining our future...Again Fuck you!!!!!!

Oh Zan, why do you even bother with your long explanations about something that is totally unrelated to what you said originally and what I responded to. Just exactly what would have been my explanation to satisfy you and other TC's on what I wrote, that would make me impartial. I wrote as to what happened, and even though you do not dispute the details, you object it to be written. I was not adding anything to the mix as you have done with your above post. You said "There is no need to be ungrateful to the people that saved our lives...Gcs as well as Tcs". So what you were saying was that the GC's were ungrateful from being saved by Turkey. Well, I asked the GC's to step forward and tell us if they agree with you, and so far, they have not. This was a subject matter between Turkey and the GC's, so I do not know why the TC's all jumped up and down with their comments. People are free to say what ever they want Zan, but I do not follow the "code of silence" as most TC's tends to do when it comes to the Cyprus issue. I always thought, that the "code of silence" was only reserved for "bad cops".

Kikapu, it is pointless trying to argue with Zan! Believe me!

[denizaksulu]

Just because YOU keep saying that you are impartial does not make it so mate. Have you really looked at your posts and maybe even wondered why all but one other Cypriot takes you to task every time you speak. I think you are totally partial and the comments show that I am right. You have all the TCs saying you are wrong and the GCs saying you are right...Again...Any bells ringing in your head????


You want to be impartial then take what I said and not what you think I said and respond accordingly. Turkey WITHOUT DOUBT saved the lives of many Cypriots and the crying GCs that thanked god that Turkey had done so tells that tail. You want to mix up the point of whether they then should have handed the island back over to Greek control is another matter all together and on that point I say that they should not have. The Makarios government had pulled of what they wanted in 1963 and got the GC government recognised as the sole government of Cyprus and in 1974 they were not prepared to take back power as the Zurich agreement stood in its entirety. That is the facts of the situation and you cannot change that. There was no legitimate government in situ to hand back to as far as the TCs were concerned...If you are daft enough to accept that from the GCs then that is your problem and does nothing to my statement that you took exception too but justifies it further. You really have bought into the Greek propaganda and or part of it. As someone else said 'Try thinking like a TC for a moment".
We as Tcs have seen the other side and thought about those people that were displaced and we sat in our English homes in shitty English weather thinking about our own as well when they were dieing from starvation and disease while the illegal government that tried to kill us in the first place was taking over the country. I have told you before that you have the option of living as a GC where ever you like and you chose the South...Be happy and shut the fuck up about what my people went through. We know what we went through and up until the A plan we were prepared to go against those that advised us that the GCs don't want to share power with us and the Zurich agreement is the last thing on their mind...We were wrong because that is exactly the case. Some are still trying to work towards a unified Cyprus under the Zurich agreement and they have nothing but respect from me but you just want to hand over power to our aggressors and see us put into a position where we have no say in determining our future...Again Fuck you!!!!!!

Oh Zan, why do you even bother with your long explanations about something that is totally unrelated to what you said originally and what I responded to. Just exactly what would have been my explanation to satisfy you and other TC's on what I wrote, that would make me impartial. I wrote as to what happened, and even though you do not dispute the details, you object it to be written. I was not adding anything to the mix as you have done with your above post. You said "There is no need to be ungrateful to the people that saved our lives...Gcs as well as Tcs". So what you were saying was that the GC's were ungrateful from being saved by Turkey. Well, I asked the GC's to step forward and tell us if they agree with you, and so far, they have not. This was a subject matter between Turkey and the GC's, so I do not know why the TC's all jumped up and down with their comments. People are free to say what ever they want Zan, but I do not follow the "code of silence" as most TC's tends to do when it comes to the Cyprus issue. I always thought, that the "code of silence" was only reserved for "bad cops".

Kikapu, it is pointless trying to argue with Zan! Believe me!

Stop politiking Kifeas. There is nothing wrong with a dialogue /trialogue. People will have different views. Zan is right, Kikapu is right, right, so am I. The world would be a boring place if we all agreed and patted each other on the back. Alas your suggestions are a bit sinister.

Keep up the debates. We all learn. Please dont tell us 'that Nasreddin Hodja story'