Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Jerry,
Your description is very much in keeping with my impression. I've occasionally seen military convoys on the roads - but no more frequently than you'd see if you lived around Salisbury Plain or Catterick/N.Yorks. Certainly generates nothing like the feeling of occupation, even if you're the one being 'protected', that you get in Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, etc.

[Viewpoint]

You are correct Turkish Soldiers are confined to designated areas and are generally well behaved when they visit towns dressed as civilians.

[growuptcs]

zan, its very easy to say "It is hard when you hear things that you do not want to hear or things that go against the propaganda that your government has taught you", is nothing more than words to stretch out the Cyprob till eternity. I know your days are counting down with nothing to look forward to, but why punish the youth because of your bitter days when we both had bitter pasts. You know the reason as much as I do. wink, wink. At your age it dont matter how LEGAL your country is but if you had grandkids that live in the "TRNC" and wouldn't mind them living in an uncertain future, you would be one selfish S.O.B.

[Viewpoint]

zan, its very easy to say "It is hard when you hear things that you do not want to hear or things that go against the propaganda that your government has taught you", is nothing more than words to stretch out the Cyprob till eternity. I know your days are counting down with nothing to look forward to, but why punish the youth because of your bitter days when we both had bitter pasts. You know the reason as much as I do. wink, wink. At your age it dont matter how LEGAL your country is but if you had grandkids that live in the "TRNC" and wouldn't mind them living in an uncertain future, you would be one selfish S.O.B.

All we ask for just like you is to know the structure and safeguards of any future unification, we will not be forced into a situation where we are left at the mercy of GCs in GC state run purely by GCs.

[humanist]

VP

All we ask for just like you is to know the structure and safeguards of any future unification, we will not be forced into a situation where we are left at the mercy of GCs in GC state run purely by GCs.

VP I think that is a very fair ask. If the RoC refuses to give that structure then it certainly is letting you down. Perhaps this could be part of the talks between Mr T and Mr P. I imagine that would be the agenda, surely?

[Get Real!]

This is the arena on which we use our brains Snake and you guys find that a bit oif a task....If you are so tuff Try taking a flag down in the TRNC....

If Matsakis could do it anybody can...

[Viewpoint]

VP

All we ask for just like you is to know the structure and safeguards of any future unification, we will not be forced into a situation where we are left at the mercy of GCs in GC state run purely by GCs.

VP I think that is a very fair ask. If the RoC refuses to give that structure then it certainly is letting you down. Perhaps this could be part of the talks between Mr T and Mr P. I imagine that would be the agenda, surely?

humanist always the optimist..this meeting is a farce purely for Papadops election campaign..for 5 years he would not even drink coffee with Talat now its a priority. Talat should have diplomatically said he would gladely meet with the newly elected GC leader next year.

[humanist]

VP

humanist always the optimist..this meeting is a farce purely for Papadops election campaign..for 5 years he woudl not even drink coffee with Talat now its a priority. Talat should have diplomatically said he gladely meet with the newly elected GC leader next year.

somone's gotta be mate. for your children's sake I hope your wrong. I don't have children yet. But when I do I want them to may be live in a free country wih the rest of cypriots.

On that note am going to bed.

[Kifeas]

And, to continue on this point about the 'feel' of occupation : it is a matter of policy and historical precedent that one of the chief objectives of occupying armies has been to make sure that the occupied population are reminded 24hours a day, 7 days a week, that they are being occupied, that the army's presence is obvious, permanent and unavoidable. Curiously, the army presence in TRNC - at least what I have seen over a long period - is pretty low-key, it is not obvious, it is avoidable. Not so in Lebanon, Israel, etc ...

CopperLine, do you mean to say that the 200,000 GCs, i.e. the 80% of the inhabitants of the occupied north, that have been ethnically cleansed in 1974 and cannot have proper or even any access to their properties, churches, towns and villages for 33 years now, are not reminded 24/7 that there is occupation in their country??? Do they need anything else to remind them of the fact of the occupation, besides living and experiencing the consequences every minute of their lives, ever since? Or you count only the TCs and the settlers from Turkey as the "proper" inhabitants of the north, since they are the only ones existing there after the ethnic cleansing by Turkey?

Take a drive from north Nicosia to west, towards Morfou, and then northwest towards Kyrenia, and you will count at least 25 military bases /camps, only along the roads. Do you want me to show you the Google earth pictures of all the Turkish military bases in the north, so that you can be convinced of the fact that almost 10% of the occupied territory is a military zone! Do you know of any other country with such a proportion of land been kept for military purposes?

[CopperLine]

do you mean to say that the 200,000 GCs, i.e. the 80% of the inhabitants of the occupied north, that have been ethnically cleansed in 1974 and cannot have proper or even any access to their properties, churches, towns and villages for 33 years now, are not reminded 24/7 that there is occupation in their country???

Kifeas,
That is not what I said in my posting, neither in detail nor substance. You'll recall that it was you who suggested that I should not have expected to see tanks and soldiers in their thousands at the Ledra Crossing !

I've driven exactly the route you describe many times (though I haven't counted the bases/camps - have you counted them en route or have you counted them from Google Earth; an important difference) and yes there are many bases, but as I mentioned before the impression is not one of typical military occupation. As others have posted here troops are generally restricted to the bases which, driving past in a car, are often quite inconspicuous.

However, none of what you say in your first paragraph addresses the issue at hand, which is what is the effect of seeing an army of occupation up front and permanent. It is not to diminish the the significance and trauma of expulsion to say that Cypriots (Greek or Turkish) permanently resident in north London do not experience the occupation of north Cyprus in the same way as those who live in Paphos, Kyrenia or those who have lived more or less on the Green Line. Those in Tottenham literally don't see "that there is an occupation in their country"... and "Do they need anything else to remind them of the fact of the occupation ....?" Well yes it seems they do ... people such as yourself constantly referring to an occupying army, ethnic cleansing and so on. Of course you are at liberty to make these constant reminders but that is not remotely similar in effect to actually living under and army of occupation.

Let's get out of the goldfish bowl of Cyprus and turn to an example across the water : Palestine. There is a massive Palestinian diaspora nestled in every corner of the world, the vast majority of whom were directly or indirectly expelled from their homeland. Many of these Palestinians have never seen the land of Palestine still less experienced the brutalities of Israeli occupation. How this diaspora experiences and expresses their expulsion or military occupation of Palestine is wholly different from those Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, or even in the camps in Lebanon.
Not to appreciate these kinds of differences in experience of occupation means that one can't understand how different and sometimes conflicting political movements arise in a diaspora community than those movements which arise amongst the 'occupied' peoples.

Just to be sure, Kifeas : I am not comparing Cyprus and Palestine. I am simply using Palestine as an illustration of my claim that the direct experience of an occupying army and the way it forms people's beliefs and actions cannot be equated with the beliefs and actions of a people who live thousands of miles from, perhaps several generations removed from the those either 'first moved' or 'under military occupation.'