Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

Wow, Tim ... excellent post, in agreeance with you 100%. Though I was one of the ppl who said I found the titlle offensive, well may be disturbing. However I can see that you controversial post did atract a debate.... well done and thank you

[kalahari]

In complete agreement with Andreas. Excellent post Tim. I think you have hit many nails squarely on their heads.

But may I once again open this debate a little wider with the question "Does freedom of speech extend to grafitti?"

Just to be clear, in my book no it does not. Grafitti, ALL grafitti, should be a criminal act and the relevant council should make it their priority to stamp it out as an activity and remove it as an eyesore – particularly when it's as inflammatory as this.

But how do the rest of you feel about this denial of liberty that I propose?

(See also my recent post on a Charter of Human Responsibilities.)

[zan]

In complete agreement with Andreas. Excellent post Tim. I think you have hit many nails squarely on their heads.

But may I once again open this debate a little wider with the question "Does freedom of speech extend to grafitti?"

Just to be clear, in my book no it does not. Grafitti, ALL grafitti, should be a criminal act and the relevant council should make it their priority to stamp it out as an activity and remove it as an eyesore – particularly when it's as inflammatory as this.

But how do the rest of you feel about this denial of liberty that I propose?

(See also my recent post on a Charter of Human Responsibilities.)

It is a direct incitement to violence and that is not allowed any where. Although the flags can be said to incite the same in GCs as well.....

[Kikapu]

If I may take a page from our good friend Zan's quote book, when he says "if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear the sound of a falling tree, then did the falling tree make a sound". Point being, in order to incite violence or even offend the person you are trying to offend, in this case the Turks with "Kill Turks", then doesn't there have to be Turks there, to offend them. Are there any Turks in Limassol.?? If there are NO Turks there to see this graffiti, then no one is offended or violence has been incited. If Tim did not tell us, then we would have perhaps never known about it. This does not excuse the graffiti in the first place, and as a general rule it should be cleaned up soon as possible, but the way I see things, the only persons who have been offended my this graffiti, are the GC's who may have some understanding regarding the TC's, but doubt very much, any GC would be offended, if they understand this graffiti to be meant for the Turkish Military which is occupying part of their country.

[zan]

If I may take a page from our good friend Zan's quote book, when he says "if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear the sound of a falling tree, then did the falling tree make a sound". Point being, in order to incite violence or even offend the person you are trying to offend, in this case the Turks with "Kill Turks", then doesn't there have to be Turks there, to offend them. Are there any Turks in Limassol.?? If there are NO Turks there to see this graffiti, then no one is offended or violence has been incited. If Tim did not tell us, then we would have perhaps never known about it. This does not excuse the graffiti in the first place, and as a general rule it should be cleaned up soon as possible, but the way I see things, the only persons who have been offended my this graffiti, are the GC's who may have some understanding regarding the TC's, but doubt very much, any GC would be offended, if they understand this graffiti to be meant for the Turkish Military which is occupying part of their country.

So the people that were to be incited were not there either then

Just one person to hear the tree is enough Kiks. Thats the whole point.

[humanist]

kalahari

In complete agreement with Andreas. Excellent post Tim. I think you have hit many nails squarely on their heads.

But may I once again open this debate a little wider with the question "Does freedom of speech extend to grafitti?"

Just to be clear, in my book no it does not. Grafitti, ALL grafitti, should be a criminal act and the relevant council should make it their priority to stamp it out as an activity and remove it as an eyesore – particularly when it's as inflammatory as this.

But how do the rest of you feel about this denial of liberty that I propose?

(See also my recent post on a Charter of Human Responsibilities.)

Thank you Kal and of course thank you Tim for an interesting debate.

Kal, my stance is that perhaps freedom of speech does extend to grafiti. Whthere I agree with its content or not is another matter. In this case I do not agree with it. Had the grafiti said "We love and embrace our Turkish brothers and sisters", would we be having this debate now? Perhaps not. Am also a supporter of grafiti art, not when it's on my wall though (only kiddin, I do not agree with grafiti on private property any private property unless commissioned by the owner) however I do like some grafitit art and I do believe that councils have responsibility to provide a space for this to take place.

No worries about this grafitit though I am in Cyprus mid to late Novemebr and I intend to paint it off myself if not removed by the council. I will be taking it down with a banner next to it, saying Cypriot for Unification, (well may be am getting a bit ambitious there). It'll be a hoot though to have the TV station filming this gy who came to Cyprus from ustralia to take down the grafiti.

I guess on another level I find it disappointing that neighbours have not taken it down themselves. Which raises another interesting question, are Cypriots racist bigots who silently support partition of Cyprus?

Your input on this question would be interesting and appreciated.

[kalahari]

Andreas, you will be surprised I think by the proliferation of graffiti around Limassol when you come. It is everywhere – and nothing, apart from the churches, appears to be sacred. Most of the graffiti is based around football hatred "FUCK AEL", "FUCK APPOLLON" or football love "AEL", "APPOLLON", with a smattering of local tribalism coming in "ST NICKS" and some harks back to political dissent "OXIIIIIII". Limassol is a truly beautiful city, and yet the graffiti blemishes everything, even the base of the Makarios (Agia Nikolai) roundabout fountain. I have only been living here two months, and already I am becoming blind to it. My children have stopped pointing out the rude words.

Cypriots are not racist bigots. They are a very friendly people who live on a small island that has seen far more than its fair share of injustice at the hands of the men in power. They should have a little more civic pride, yes. But this is just the actions of one young hot head who probably doesn't understand his history and was probably completely pissed when he did it.

I also think that if anybody tried to remove the KILL TURKS grafitti, given that there is SO much every where else, this in itself would be seen as a political act – and to be fair I think I would see it as an act of PC myself. And having just left PC World for these fair shores I am not going to advocate the introduction of THAT disease over here.

Having said that, when you're over with your paint bucket, give me a call and we'll get Tim involved too. We'll get some "ISLAND OF LOVE" T shirts made up, put flowers in our hair and get sploshing!

[Tim Drayton]

If I may take a page from our good friend Zan's quote book, when he says "if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear the sound of a falling tree, then did the falling tree make a sound". Point being, in order to incite violence or even offend the person you are trying to offend, in this case the Turks with "Kill Turks", then doesn't there have to be Turks there, to offend them. Are there any Turks in Limassol.?? If there are NO Turks there to see this graffiti, then no one is offended or violence has been incited. If Tim did not tell us, then we would have perhaps never known about it. This does not excuse the graffiti in the first place, and as a general rule it should be cleaned up soon as possible, but the way I see things, the only persons who have been offended my this graffiti, are the GC's who may have some understanding regarding the TC's, but doubt very much, any GC would be offended, if they understand this graffiti to be meant for the Turkish Military which is occupying part of their country.

[Tim Drayton]

Are there any Turks in Limassol.??

In response to the question whether there are any Turkish Cypriots in Limassol, the answer is a resounding yes. There are far fewer TCs in Limassol than there once were, but they have retained a foothold here. Please note that not long ago a Turkish-speaking primary school was opened to meet the needs of TCs living in the city. I refer you to the following section of a document entitled “Statements by the Government Spokesman 27.09.2005” on an official RoC website:

http://www.pio.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/A ... enDocument

“3. Cyprus Government respects right to education for Turkish Cypriots

The Cyprus Government fully respects the right to education, according to the Republic’s Constitution and the relevant international conventions and for this reason, it has taken all necessary measures to respond to the educational needs of Turkish Cypriots and other Turkish-speaking people in Limassol, the Government Spokesman Mr Kypros Chrysostomides has noted.

In a written statement on the opening of a Turkish Cypriot elementary school in Limassol, Mr Chrysostomides said the Government had introduced special measures from the school year 2004-2005 aiming to upgrade the elementary education of Turkish Cypriots, Roma and other Turkish speakers living in that town. “These measures included the appointment of two Turkish Cypriot teachers at the 18th Elementary school of Limassol to allow Turkish-speaking students to be taught their culture, religion and literature in their mother tongue”, Mr Chrysostomides noted.

In addition to those measures, he added, the Government decided to set up a Turkish Cypriot elementary school in Limassol, for the school year 2005-2006, to provide Turkish-speaking families with the ability to choose the way in which the educational needs of their children would be best met. The Spokesman then said all parents were informed on time about the new school in order to choose where they wanted to send their children this year, and all of them informed the Government of their wish to register their children at the 18th Elementary school like last year. The Government informed the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces (UNFICYP) about that development.

Regardless of the families’ choice to register their children at the 18th Elementary school, the Turkish Cypriot school will be available in case some families wish to register their children there”, Mr Chrysostomides concluded.

At present, a total of 53 children of Turkish-speaking families are attending classes at the 18th Elementary school in Limassol, out of which 31 are attending all-day lessons.”

The reference to Roma (or “gypsies” in non-PC talk) is interesting, because I feel they are unseen victims of the Cyprus problem. Apparently this ethnic group was expelled by Denktash from the North and they came and settled in the Turkish quarter in LImassol. They speak Turkish but do not feel themselves ethnically to be Turkish. Very little is ever written or spoken about the problems of this particular group. So you can occasionally still hear Turkish spoken on the streets of the Turkish quarter of Limassol!

In fact, I was talking about Limassol to a TC in a coffee shop in north Nicosia last year, and he seemed very knowledgeable about the city, so I asked if he was a refugee from there. It turned out that his sister is married to a GC and they live in Limassol, so this man is a frequent visitor there. Cyprus is changing folks now that everyone is free to cross the line! In fact, millions people have done so in the past few years.

Then there is the well publicized case of Arif Mustafa, a TC who fought through the RoC courts to regain possession of his house in Episkopi/Piskopu – which nowadays is virtually an outer suburb of Limassol. He succeeded and now lives there.

From time to time I travel on the bus between Limassol and Nicosia, and I am surprised how often I hear elderly passengers on this bus speaking Cypriot Turkish. These are without doubt people paying nostalgic visits to their old homes.

I was at a bicommunal event on the seafront in Limassol 2 years ago. I still remember a young TC making a very impassioned speech in which he said “I am very proud to be addressing you this evening in my home town of Limassol where I one day hope to live”. And this chap was actually born in exile in the north, but still feels Limassol to be his home town because that is where his parents were from. Do you really want to reply to this kind of sentiment with the message “kill Turks”?

So in short, yes there are plenty of TCs around to see this offensive slogan, and as I said it is in a very prominent location. It is interesting that the accompanying graffiti is all in Greek but these words are in English. I wonder if this was done deliberately so that TCs (who are more likely to understand English than Greek) can understand.

PS I have long refrained from making this point because it seems like a chaep jibe, but honestly if the best resistance you can offer to the Turkish occupation is to scrawl a slogan on a wall in government-controlled territory, then forget it.

[iceman]

I am surprised that this thread still has any mileage left in it, but I would like to reply to these points.
I was deliberately provocative in both my choice of title for the thread and in the way I worded my first post. I don’t really apologise for this – we have crossed the forty page mark and I think this approach has helped to attract attention to the issue.
I can’t help touching on a point that was raised with reference to my first post. I was informed that, according to “Minor Atrocities of the Twentieth Century” the casualty figures for Cyprus were, for example, in (1955-59):
Turkish Cypriots: 84
Greek Cypriots: 278

Tim Drayton,
I am surprised a man of your knowledge can make such a wrong observation..
During the period you mention (1955-59) the clash was between EOKA & the British administration,NOT GC against TC!!...
How can you blame the Turkish side for the 278 GC loses when they (GC's) were fighting the British for independence and Enosis?
It was unfortunate that the British recruited some TC's to the police force to defend their position and GC's retaliated by killing civilian TC's..
The intercommunal violence between the two communities (TC & the GC) started December 1963..