erolz wrote:Piratis wrote:Sure, sure. You are Cypriot and your Turkish background is a detail. But then when it suits you that "detail" makes you a totally separate "people" with separate self determination rights.
Look Piratis I am Cypriot. What makes me a seperate people is when you say your are not a Cypriot as a people but Greek. That by definition makes me not the same people as you. Your choice not mine.
I will tell you again: We didn't choose what to be. What we are is what we have been for 1000s of years. You knew very well what Cypriots are when you first came to our island.
The only choice made in this case it was your choice to invade our island and come and live here. You initially undemocratically ruled over us but then lost your empire and the right to rule over the peoples you formerly forcefully occupied.
Piratis wrote:Then when it comes to the crimes of the Turks against us that "detail" totally disappears and you become just Cypriot in order to avoid any blame.
I understand why you want to apportion blame to the communites not by their acts as communites but by the acts of the ancestors from which those communites culturaly derived. It is clear why you want and need to do this. However the communites are directly responsbile for what they did as communites. Mine and yours. Shall we talk of your communites responsibilty as part of the roman/greco empire for the conquest and enslavement and slaughter of english/celts ? Is TP and your community as responsible for this as they are for setting up illegal armed ethnic bands , run out of the interior ministry of the 'RoC' and sent out to kill and terrorise the TC community in 63-67 ?
Erolz, unlike you who wants to just selectivity choose the tiny parts of history that suit you, I want to see the entire relevant history,
including the parts that you think suit you.
A "community" does indeed include the ancestors. Does your definition includes in a "community" just the people alive today? (in which case you shouldn't be able to say anything about Makarios, Grivas etc). Aren't what the people did before them, and the people before them etc affect the history chain?
If in 30 years from now your illegal occupation continues, and everybody that was involved in the events in the 60s is dead, wouldn't you continue giving the same excuses as you give now even if they will be "ancient history" by then?
I remind you that in 1950s when the more recent conflict started, the Ottoman rule of Cyprus had ended just 7 decades earlier, barely an "ancient history" as you are trying to present it in order to avoid the blame.
Even in our recent history Turks have much more blame. They are the ones who started the intercommunal conflicting by siding with the colonialists so for once again they forcefully deny to the Cypriot people their democratic and legitimate wishes, they supported the criminal aim of partition that involves the ehtnic cleansing of Cyprus, they killed 100s of people during the intercomunal conflict and 1000s during the invasion, and the illegally occupy part of our country for
33 years, for longer than any period they complain about. What is worst, they continue with their crimes and illegalities
TODAY.
Piratis wrote:Just like a real Athenian is Greek, and a real Spartan is Greek, and a real Cypriot is Greek.
No it is not just like that when you also claim to speak (alone) for the CYPRIOT PEOPLE , when such is necessary in order to impose your Greekness on me in my own homeland. You can not be a part of the CYPRIOT PEOPLE and a part of the GREEK PEOPLE at the same time, unless you have a greek parent and a cypriot parent.
So a Cretan can not be 100% Cretan and 100% Greek? An Athenian can not be 100% Athenian and 100% Greek, A Londoner can not be 100% Londoner and 100% English (because London has other ethnic minorities in it)??? What you say is totally ridiculous and part of your wishful thinking.
Piratis wrote:We are the true Cypriots, the exact same ones that you found on this island when your first barbarian hordes arrived butchering 10000s and pillaging without mercy our beloved island.
And here we have the essence of the true core to the problem in Cyprus, historicaly and today. According to you I am not your compatriot, nor a 'true' Cypriot. You , meaing GC are 'true' Cypriots and I am just a part of the 'barbarian hordes' that 'butcherd' you. And you wonder why, with an attitude like this, we have a divided Cyprus ?
Of course you
could be my compatriot if you started acting like a Cypriot and respecting Cyprus and its people, instead of trying to impose your will by forceful and undemocratic means. My compatriots do not include only Greek Cypriots, but also Armenian Cypriots, Latin Cypriots, Maronite Cypriots, other Cypriots that gained the right to be Cypriots with their loyalty, and also those Turkish true Cypriots like Bir and Kikapu who are real Cypriots and are not acting as our foreign rulers who want to impose on us their will by brute force, but they accept that all Cypriots can be equal without racist discriminations, and Cypriots can democratically rule themselves.
Piratis wrote:Erolz, maybe you can "choose" what to be (and thats your right) but in our case we are what we have always been, we didn't choose anything. You knew full well that the people of Cyprus are Greek when you first came in 1571, and you knew full well this is OUR island and yet you came and imposed your rule over us by force. If you don't like what real Cypriots are, then go from where you came from.
Yes Piratis your message is as loud and clear as it was in the 50's and 60's. Cyprus is Greek.
Not just in the 50's and 60's but long long before that. This was something you knew full well when you were invading us to occupy our island and exploit us.
Here is from the era before the Turks arrived to Cyprus:
During the long Lusignan period and the eighty-two years of Venetian control, foreign rulers unquestionably changed the Cypriot way of life, but it was the Cypriot peasant with his Greek religion and Greek culture who withstood all adversity. Throughout the period, almost three centuries, there were two distinct societies, one foreign and one native. The first society consisted primarily of Frankish nobles with their retinues and Italian merchants with their families and followers. The second society, the majority of the population, consisted of Greek Cypriot serfs and laborers. Each of these societies had its own culture, language, and religion. Although a decided effort was made to supplant native customs and beliefs, the effort failed.
And here is during the Ottoman era:
During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.
I am not Cypriot, my father was not Cypriot, my grandfather was not Cypriot, my great grandfather was not Cypriot, my great great great grerat grand father was not Cypriot.
Well, in fact if you go to "great great great grerat grand father" he was probably one of those who were butchering Cypriots in order to impose their will on us, and not a Cypriot.
I either accept that CYprus is Greek, despite how many generations my family has ben born and lived in Cyprus, I will NEVER be Cypriot unless I accept that Cyprus is Greek and belongs to Greeks alone and Greece as a state and unless I accept this I should just leave Cyprus. This attitude is why Cyprus is divided today.
Well I am very sorry to have to break this to you Piratis but I am both Cypriot and NOT GREEK. That is a TRUE Cypriot, at least as truely Cypriot as you are, and I will not simply 'go away' so you can impose your greek, not cypriot but greek, desires on me and my homeland without any say from me and my community.
Nobody asked you to go away!!! Just to finally show some respect to Cyprus and its people. Every nation has ethnic minorities in it, you are not something new or strange. You ruled Cyprus forcefully for long enough, now it is time to allow Cyprus to be ruled democratically by its own people (you included).
Piratis wrote:If you are going into the past in order to appropriate blame then of course I want the whole past to be included, and not just the bits that suit you.
It is not just about the 'past' and selecting bits that suit me. It is about the responsibilites of the comunites as communites. The TC community as a community did not invade Cyprus.
See above regarding "communities". It is not just the people alive today.
About the 1974 invasion, the TCs were instrumental it its execution, not only they assisted the Turkish army but they also carried out several of the crimes during that year.
What is funny is that for you it is OK to use the coup, which was made by the Junta of Athens, as an excuse to not only blame but ethnically cleanse 1/3rd of the Greek Cypriot population from their homeland, but when it comes to you and Turkey you claim total innocence and accept no blame
Piratis wrote: Cypriots (who are Greek) existed on this island for 3500 years. Since you don't want to associate yourself with the Ottomans, then maybe you should first tell us when exactly the "TC community" dropped from the sky in Cyprus?
Culturaly I am connect to the Ottomans. Geneticaly I am not more connected to them than you are. Is my community today, as a cypriot community, responsible for what the ottomans did in Cyprus. Not they are not. Is the GC community today responsible for what it did as a community in the 60's. Yes it is. Of course you refuse to accpet this for accpting it means you can not play your relentless 'whatever we did to you, you did worse to us' card at every opportuinity as a means of absolving your community for those things it itself did as a community.
You didn't answer the question: When did the "TC community" dropped from the sky in Cyprus?
Piratis wrote:As far as your baseless claims about the pre Greek Cypriot culture I gave you a very clear answer already:
There is nothing baseless in facts Piratis. The fact is before the arrival of any greek or anything greek in Cyprus, there were people and cultures and languages there that were not Greek in Cyprus. Some time after the arrival of the first Greeks and Greek cultural , those non Greek Cypriot cultures and peoples ceased to exist having been replaced by Greek ones. These are just plain evident facts.
It may suit your ego and needs to believe that these people and cultures that existed in Cyprus before the arrival of the first Greek, on meeting their first Greek wanted nothing more than to give up their previous cultures and lands and become themselves Greek, becaue of how sheerly wonderful being Greek was back then, but the chances that this was the case are slim in my opinion.
Again, I give you facts, you are giving me your wishful thinking that has as a basis your hate for anything Greek and nothing else.
Again some facts for you:
1) At that time the population of Cyprus was 5000 people max. Most places were unoccupied. The Greeks did not take the land of anybody in Cyprus.
2) The concept of a "country" did not exist back then. What they had was city states.
3) The assimilation of those few pre Greek Cypriots and Greeks happened gradually. And yes, the Greek civilization was so great that people were adopting it just due to its greatness. Even the powerful Romans who had nothing to fear had adopted most aspects of the Greek civilization.
