Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Sorry but all I can do is laugh at the above post of Piratis....


EOKA the EOKA-B and then it was Greece and not us and then Cyprus is Greek and then he says we change according to our needs......Sorry I can't speak any moreeeeeeeeHahahahahahhahhhhha

I just love your technically challenging replies... we're talking 4,000+ messages of sheer wisdom!

What like this one you made

I would concentrate on defending myself if I were you and leave others to theirs.....

[erolz]

Sure, sure. You are Cypriot and your Turkish background is a detail. But then when it suits you that "detail" makes you a totally separate "people" with separate self determination rights.

Look Piratis I am Cypriot. What makes me a seperate people is when you say your are not a Cypriot as a people but Greek. That by definition makes me not the same people as you. Your choice not mine.

Then when it comes to the crimes of the Turks against us that "detail" totally disappears and you become just Cypriot in order to avoid any blame.

I understand why you want to apportion blame to the communites not by their acts as communites but by the acts of the ancestors from which those communites culturaly derived. It is clear why you want and need to do this. However the communites are directly responsbile for what they did as communites. Mine and yours. Shall we talk of your communites responsibilty as part of the roman/greco empire for the conquest and enslavement and slaughter of english/celts ? Is TP and your community as responsible for this as they are for setting up illegal armed ethnic bands , run out of the interior ministry of the 'RoC' and sent out to kill and terrorise the TC community in 63-67 ?

So you have to decide and finally be consistent on how much of a "detail" that "detail" is.

My community is directly responsible for what it did as a community, as is yours. It is not more responsible for what Ottomans did hundreds of years ago than yours is for what Greeks did hundreds of years ago. I am consistent on this and always have been. Of course you need to 'increase' the guilt and blame and crimes of my community - so you blame it as a community for the acts of the ottomans.

Just like a real Athenian is Greek, and a real Spartan is Greek, and a real Cypriot is Greek.

No it is not just like that when you also claim to speak (alone) for the CYPRIOT PEOPLE , when such is necessary in order to impose your Greekness on me in my own homeland. You can not be a part of the CYPRIOT PEOPLE and a part of the GREEK PEOPLE at the same time, unless you have a greek parent and a cypriot parent.

We are the true Cypriots, the exact same ones that you found on this island when your first barbarian hordes arrived butchering 10000s and pillaging without mercy our beloved island.

And here we have the essence of the true core to the problem in Cyprus, historicaly and today. According to you I am not your compatriot, nor a 'true' Cypriot. You , meaing GC are 'true' Cypriots and I am just a part of the 'barbarian hordes' that 'butcherd' you. And you wonder why, with an attitude like this, we have a divided Cyprus ?

Erolz, maybe you can "choose" what to be (and thats your right) but in our case we are what we have always been, we didn't choose anything. You knew full well that the people of Cyprus are Greek when you first came in 1571, and you knew full well this is OUR island and yet you came and imposed your rule over us by force. If you don't like what real Cypriots are, then go from where you came from.

Yes Piratis your message is as loud and clear as it was in the 50's and 60's. Cyprus is Greek. I am not Cypriot, my father was not Cypriot, my grandfather was not Cypriot, my great grandfather was not Cypriot, my great great great grerat grand father was not Cypriot. I either accept that CYprus is Greek, despite how many generations my family has ben born and lived in Cyprus, I will NEVER be Cypriot unless I accept that Cyprus is Greek and belongs to Greeks alone and Greece as a state and unless I accept this I should just leave Cyprus. This attitude is why Cyprus is divided today.

Well I am very sorry to have to break this to you Piratis but I am both Cypriot and NOT GREEK. That is a TRUE Cypriot, at least as truely Cypriot as you are, and I will not simply 'go away' so you can impose your greek, not cypriot but greek, desires on me and my homeland without any say from me and my community.

If you are going into the past in order to appropriate blame then of course I want the whole past to be included, and not just the bits that suit you.

It is not just about the 'past' and selecting bits that suit me. It is about the responsibilites of the comunites as communites. The TC community as a community did not invade Cyprus.

Cypriots (who are Greek) existed on this island for 3500 years. Since you don't want to associate yourself with the Ottomans, then maybe you should first tell us when exactly the "TC community" dropped from the sky in Cyprus?

Culturaly I am connect to the Ottomans. Geneticaly I am not more connected to them than you are. Is my community today, as a cypriot community, responsible for what the ottomans did in Cyprus. Not they are not. Is the GC community today responsible for what it did as a community in the 60's. Yes it is. Of course you refuse to accpet this for accpting it means you can not play your relentless 'whatever we did to you, you did worse to us' card at every opportuinity as a means of absolving your community for those things it itself did as a community.

As far as your baseless claims about the pre Greek Cypriot culture I gave you a very clear answer already:

There is nothing baseless in facts Piratis. The fact is before the arrival of any greek or anything greek in Cyprus, there were people and cultures and languages there that were not Greek in Cyprus. Some time after the arrival of the first Greeks and Greek cultural , those non Greek Cypriot cultures and peoples ceased to exist having been replaced by Greek ones. These are just plain evident facts.

It may suit your ego and needs to believe that these people and cultures that existed in Cyprus before the arrival of the first Greek, on meeting their first Greek wanted nothing more than to give up their previous cultures and lands and become themselves Greek, becaue of how sheerly wonderful being Greek was back then, but the chances that this was the case are slim in my opinion.

[humanist]

GR I believe that the Maui word for Maori is Maui

[erolz]

GR I believe that the Maui word for Maori is Maui

You might believe that but you would of course be wrong if you did

[Viewpoint]

Would that be where we convert the whole island into a GC state and we TCs have minority rights,

No RoC citizen has "minority rights" regardless of their ethnic background. What you're probably referring to is the TC community having an overall minimized influence on the island and that would be quite correct and democratic given their small number.

...just like the Pakistanis in the UK? or the one where you turn Cyprus into Greece?

You seem to have a problem with the Pakistani community in the UK! What exactly is that problem? Are you implying that the Turkish Cypriot community in the UK has more rights than the Pakistani? Where did you get that from? Why don't you use YOUR OWN community for your meaningless example???

VP, although you are generally a courteous and well spoken fellow I often find that the CONTENT of your posts is so baseless that it does you no justice...

Do you know why this is the case? you do not want to understand what I am saying so you mentally try to block it out and dismiss it, thats the easy way out.

The Pakistanis are just an example these can the GCs or the TCs Polish Indians etc....their ethnic background is not the point, the point is that the majority view them as bloody foreigners and they are always at a disadvantage.

Do you regard TCs in Cyprus = to TCs, Polish or Indians living in the UK?

Your response to the above question will reveal your viewpoint to everyone thus proving where you stand.

[OB1]

Thank you for your remembering me, Birkıbrıslı (note the undotted letter 'i' which certain parties would allege is only available on a special keyboard which Turks have exlusive access to - sorry to deflate these arguments but in fact you can set up windows to write in as many languages as you like, and you can switch from one to another at a click of the mouse), with your question:

Where is our friend TIM what's his name by the way???
I find his absence from this debate rather suspicious.

This is TIM what's his name, and although I have felt tempted to come in earlier, having been told by a resident of London to "keep your nose out", I decided that I was right in believing that, since the Cyprus problem can only be solved by Cypriots, foreigners should stay out.
Yes, since Cypriots have told me to stay away, I respect that, but on the other hand I have been invited to comment by a resident of Australia, so I will leave a few notes before I depart.
At the risk of "fueling any more fires", something which I have been requested to do by somebody who at least lives in Cyprus, I seriously wonder if by the same token persons of Cypriot decent who have chosen to make another country their permanent home have any more right than me to comment. I am a foreigner, but one who works and pays taxes to the government here, happens to love this country and its truly hospitable people and would love to see more nothing more an equitable settlement and the dismantling of the green line which scars this island. What happens here certainly impacts on me.
Yes, I lived in Turkey for a very long time and am very fluent in Turkish. This gives me certain insights into the way Cyprus is viewed from Turkey. Perhaps it makes me biased towards the Turkish position as some have suggested, although I am firmly opposed the Turkish military presence on this island (at least in excess of the numbers permitted under the agreements), and since in Turkey voicing this very opinion is an offence under the new Penal Code, I refuse to set foot on the soil of the Turkish Republic for as long as that particular article remains in force. So, if am biased towards the Turkish view, I am not aware of it. I strongly refute the claim that I am ignorant of the history of Cyprus, too. Since my arrival on this island I have read everything I can get my hands on on the subject, starting not from 1500 but with the first Neolithic settlements - I have also been to Choirokoitia to visit the remains of one such settlement. I wonder how many people who claim here to be interested in the history of Cyprus have done the same.
Of course, one piece of graffiti is the work of a mindless individual and, in itself, is not very important. My post was a kneejerk reaction after arriving home, having just witnessed these words which I personally found outrageous. In fact, nobody in ten pages of discussion has answered the basic question I posed in my post, but despite that I received a loud and clear answer. The few of you who understand this last point will enjoy a quiet chuckle. Those that don't will never understand anyway.
The reason that I referred to two well-documented massacres of innocent Turkish Cypriots was not because I am brainwashed by Turkish propaganda, but to show how disgusting this specific message is when viewed in a certain context. And by the way, I interpreted the message to mean "kill TCs", and other interpretations are possible. Believe me, I would be equally disgusted if I saw the words "Kill Greeks" written on a wall in north Cyprus, and may well have started a similar post in which I would have quoted a couple of well-documented massacres of innocent Greek Cypriot civilians with the aim of reinforcing my point.
Interestingly, though, as a frequent visitor to the occupied territories, I have never seen graffiti of this kind there. You never even see "TMT" scrawled on a wall, whereas you frequently see "ΕΟΚΑ" on walls here. Perhaps this provides some kind of insight into the different mentalities prevailing on both sides of the line. I seriously wonder, though, why if according to the discourse promoted by the Cyprus government EOKA-B was a "fascist organisation devoted to the overthrow of the legitimate government" which "staged a treacherous coup that opened the way for the occupation of one third of Cyprus", people here are quite happy to tolerate the presence of the slogan "EOKA-B" daubed inside a pedestrian underpass in the village of Erimi (close to the Buchaneer pub) - the said underpass was certainly built long after 1974. Does this not detract from the value of the memorials which were erected a couple of years ago to honour the memory of those who lost their lives while attempting to defend the Republic against against this illegal act? Or perhaps my petit bourgois British mentality attaches much more importance to such symbolic matters than they really merit.
I accept that the graffi I have drawn your attention to may be the work of provocators. No, I did not write it myself and since the words "Kill Turks" are interspersed with slogans written in Ελληνικα (shock, horror - he has his keyboard set up for Greek. What does that show?), a language that I cannot write properly, I claim "It wasn't me, guv". By the way θελω να μαθαινω Ελληνικα,but it takes time. However, one thing is for sure, the right-wing, chauvinist press in the so-called TRNC would have a field day if it got its hands on a photograph of what may seem to you like a childish prank. This is an aspect that appears to have escaped you. I was trying to use irony in my first post - note carefully the italics around "Motherland"- in an attempt to show how a message like this only serves to reinforce the arguments presented by the chauvinist segment of Turkish Cypriot society. I wonder how may GCs are aware that there are TCs who openly refer to the Turkish army as an "occupying force" and call for their removal. The daily "Afrika" does this through its columns every day. (Isn't it interesting to see the fresh input you can get from an intererested outsider who regularly reads the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot press?) And every peice of ammunition you hand to the chauvinists in the north harms the cause of those there who are trying to oppose, even if only in a small way, the Turkish occupation. Ever thought of that?
Anway, I promise never to darken your door again. Selamlar. Γεια σασ.

Then I ram my ovipositor down your throat, and lay my eggs in your chest! But I'm *not* an alien

[miltiades]

Would that be where we convert the whole island into a GC state and we TCs have minority rights,

No RoC citizen has "minority rights" regardless of their ethnic background. What you're probably referring to is the TC community having an overall minimized influence on the island and that would be quite correct and democratic given their small number.

...just like the Pakistanis in the UK? or the one where you turn Cyprus into Greece?

You seem to have a problem with the Pakistani community in the UK! What exactly is that problem? Are you implying that the Turkish Cypriot community in the UK has more rights than the Pakistani? Where did you get that from? Why don't you use YOUR OWN community for your meaningless example???

VP, although you are generally a courteous and well spoken fellow I often find that the CONTENT of your posts is so baseless that it does you no justice...

Do you know why this is the case? you do not want to understand what I am saying so you mentally try to block it out and dismiss it, thats the easy way out.

The Pakistanis are just an example these can the GCs or the TCs Polish Indians etc....their ethnic background is not the point, the point is that the majority view them as bloody foreigners and they are always at a disadvantage.

Do you regard TCs in Cyprus = to TCs, Polish or Indians living in the UK?

Your response to the above question will reveal your viewpoint to everyone thus proving where you stand.

VP , huge difference here mate. The Pakistanis along with the majority of Asians , by their own choice have remained distinctly separate from the natives. They dress differently , they teach their children that the natives are "infidels" that the culture of the natives is rotten to the core , they dislike our pets and carry on if living in Pakistan , Bangladesh etc.The T/C are part of the " natives " of Cyprus they are not from a past century or two and the T/C looks very much like a G/C .
The Pakistanis and the rest have come to the UK on their own free will , adapt and be accepted remain distant and you will be seen as such, a bloody foreigner , dont like it tough !

[EPSILON]

What a useless, meaningless and worthless pastology discussion is currently taking place in this thread, just because of one messed up idiot called EPSILON!

Kifeas, have established a dictatorship in Cyprus yourself? Anybody expressing a different idea / position than yours is an idiot?
Idiots are these who have been affected seriously by the propaganta about a "Cyprus Nation" which created for idiots like you!!!!

[EPSILON]

Kifeas,

Enlightening post as always!

Like I noted on another part of this forum, the problem in pursuing a solution to the problem has been the insistence of politicians on secret diplomacy all along. A habit which led to statements full of generalities. When we came across the details, and the 9000 pages of the Annan plan tried to drown us in details, we realised that what was brandished as bizonal federation in the past was in effect something totally different. I recall Mr Gul, Turkish foreign minister, gloating because the plan would abolish Cypriot sovereignty, one example of a detail no one ever pointed out.

What we (all of us Cypriots) need to realise is that Turkey has very specific geostrategic goals and it pursues them with directness and not a small dose of cynicism. The welfare of the Turkish Cypriot community is obviously no priority. As Mr erdogan has said, Turkey has plenty of people to put there to replace the Cypriots who leave. The insistence, shown in all maps accompanying the Annan plan, that the Turkish Cypriot component state should border the British Dekelia base is indicative of this thinking. There would in effect be two Greek Cypriot territories. If the British were to leave there would be claims by both sides to Dekelia because there was never a clarification regarding the apportionment of the territory. It was not stated whether the plan was based on the territory of the island or of the Republic.

What needled me most about the plan, and raised my suspicions on a purely personal level, was the inexplicably passive attitude of the Greek military. They accepted without protest or counterdemand all the conditions as to numbers, armaments etc posed by the Turkish high command. For me, and again I speak personally, this meant that Greece has effectively washed its hands of the problem. A conclusion reinforced by the body language of the Greek delegation in Switzerland the night of the final talks. It was up to us alone from then on and that explained Papadopoulos' speech re the plan. He was left with no other choice but to ask for rejection.

If we start to consider ourselves as well as anybody else living in Cyprus to belong to the famous "Cyprus Nation" then no problem for Anatolians and others to participate in this no history based nation/state.People like Kifeas and others can be part of it - we will never do so.

[denizaksulu]

The name of this topic should be changed. Any newcomer would think its a forum for right wing Greek fanatics!!
Regards
DA