Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

erolz

I am not a Turk. I am a Cypriot.

Well then start behaving like one buddy

[Bananiot]

Some of the greatest nations on earth are ex British colonies. What in heaven are you talking about, generalising that everywhere the Brits went caused nothing but misery! Of course the Brits served their own interests, but isn't this the rule for all of us, even on a personal level? The important question here is this: Did we make the best of the presence of the Brits in Cyprus, especially bearing in mind that they replaced the ottomans? I think the answer is obvious and furthermore, may I remind all that Greece owes its independence to the hated Brits who in 1828 risked their lives to fight a war against the ottomans when the Greek revolution was practically over and heavily defeated (Lord Byron apart). Even in the 1913 Balkan war, the Greek war fleet that born the brunt of the Greek attack in northern Greece that saw the liberation of Salonica, among else, relied heavily on the British officers who trained the Greek naivy personel.

These general aphorisms against anyone who differs from us is the trade mark of small people with a very narrow perspective, but, as I said previously, we do live in an area of the world, where all our misfortunes are the fault of others. With this mentality there is little hope for the future.

[Get Real!]

Some of the greatest nations on earth are ex British colonies.

Hello? Can't you see it's Erol open season???

[Piratis]

The Turks have.....

You just do not get it do you Piratis. I am not a Turk. I am a Cypriot.

Maybe you are a Chameleon changing between Turk and Cypriot whenever it suits you?

When it is about Cypriots taking democratic decisions for our island you are not just Cypriot, you are a Turkish Cypriot, who are different "peoples" according to you.

But when it is about your own responsibilities and your crimes against us then you became just Cypriot in order to deny your share of blame.

[Bananiot]

Actually, this time of the year in the UK is referred to as "silly season".

[Bananiot]

Erol, you cannot be what you want but I am afraid you will need to ask Piratis on this one and be whatever he chooses. He is the majority (therefore he is correct by definitions in all his claims) and you have killed thousands of us whereas we killed only tens of yours, probably while defending our honour.

[erolz]

Q1: Is it not possible for two relatively small armed organizations (EOKA & TMT) who participated in the actual inter-communal fighting to be equally blamed for the physical aspect (atrocities?) of the Cyprus problem?

If you talk about the relative blame of the two communites (ie not the blame of ottomans or turks etc), over all, or in specific periods, then one can not talk only of the violent elements within those communites to absolve the communities at large. The violent elements of each community did not exist seperate from their respective communites. They were directly and indirectly empowered and supported by them. In the period upto 74 to sensibly answer the question which community, as a community, is more to blame for the events that susbsequently lead to where we are today, one has to ask the question which of the two communites had the greater ability to avoid disaster through their own choices and regrdless of the actions of the other, short of total capitualtion to the other side.

Q2: Is it ever possible for the TC community being so fewer in number to have “political equality” under a truly democratic constitution?

Yes it is perfectly possible if one accepts that the fair unit of democracy within cyprus for issues that are totaly community ones , that is ones where what an indivdual supports or not and why they support it or not is entirely defined by which community they belong to, is the community. Such a consitution would be no more 'not democratic' in principal than the EU is 'not democratic' because it 'values' a GC's indivdual vote at anywhere from 7 to 50 times more than a UK citizens vote.

Of course if we could ever start to build a true pan Cypriot nation such that there was no realistic prospect that one community alone would pursue a communal desire above and regardless of the consequences for Cyprus and Cypriots not of that community, then the NEED for such would disapear. It is hard to see that happening when members of the numericaly dominant community insist they have the right to impose their totaly communal will, and do so in the name of a single Cypriot people, even if that totaly communal will is to destroy the existance of the CYpriot nation, state and people.

Now dear Erol, how is it that you have confused the two irrelevant issues above and merged them into a single diabolical argument?

The confusion is not mine. To many GC there is no question that the TC community as a community is at least equally to blame for the mess Cyprus is in today if not more to blame. Yet the same people than can easily and simply attribute blame equally to both communites, can not countenance the idea of them having political equality at the comunal level and only for issue that are purely communal.

[Kifeas]

Well said Piratis,

British protectorate we have been all along. The original agreements of 1960 devote more pages to the status of the British bases than to the status of the Republic. The Annan plan has about the same proportion with extensions of the base territory to include continental shelf and exclusive marine zone. The European Constitution, which Britain rejects, contains provisions about the status of the Bases!

What no one noticed in the Annan plan, at least no one commented publicly, is that the Dekelia base dvided the Greek Cypriot "component state" into two. Were the British ever to leave the base then there would be a new argument as to which of the two communities would get that territory, thereby starting a new round of clashes. Cyprus will not ever be independent unless we deal with the British presence first.

The Turkish contributors to the Forum are silent on the matter of the British perhaps they believe that they have no problem there. How wrong they are!

Nikitas, one of the main reasons the Annan plan was trashed, was because with our signature it would have enhanced and deepened partition even further (as Papadopoulos rightfully said in his pre-referendum speech,) by dividing not just the people into two communities (by “grace” of 1960 const.,) but it was now also proposing /attempting to split the whole of Cyprus (set aside any leftover of the British bases) into two ethnically owned “regions” (territories,) besides “upgrading” the two communities into two separate people!

This is what the Annan plan was, as it is manifested under its provisions for the “TCCS” constitution:

Article 1 The Form and Characteristics of the Turkish Cypriot State

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE TURKISH CYPRIOT STATE
PREAMBLE
We, the Turkish Cypriot people, bearing in mind that the territorial integrity, security and constitutional order of the Turkish Cypriot State is guaranteed under the Treaty of Guarantee, sovereignly proclaim this Constitution by approval at referendum of 20 April 2004 as the Constitution of the Turkish Cypriot State.

PART I
General Principles
The Form and Characteristics of the Turkish Cypriot State
Article 1
The Turkish Cypriot State, as one of the two Constituent States of the United Cyprus Republic, which is based on the political equality, bi-zonality and equal status of the two Constituent States, representing the distinct identity of Turkish Cypriots and their equal political status in a bizonal partnership. It is a secular state based on the principles of human rights, democracy, representative republican government, social justice and the supremacy of law.

This was the disguised platform of the Annan plan, revealed in the “constitution” prepared for the TCCS! In other words, full and complete eradication of any GC historical and /or existentialist rights or claims from that certain 30% of Cyprus! The 30% of Cyprus in which we existed for tens of centuries (as a majority, note,) and where we have the two most important monasteries of our religion (St. Barnabas and St. Andreas,) more than 50 of the most ancient churches, Salamina of Onisillos, Teucros and Evagoras, Soli, Lapithos, Kyrenia, Karpasia, etc, i.e. the most important landmark places and monuments of our GC cultural identity.

Notice the “We, the Turkish Cypriot people” on the first line of the pre-amble, and read the rest of the pre-amble! Notice also the “sovereignly proclaim!” Notice also that the term “constituent” was taken away from the full title of the TCCS, and it only remained as TC State!

Notice in article 1, how the initial term “component state” was replaced by the term “Constituent state,” simply because “constituent” has two meanings, an active and a passive one (constructive ambiguity,) and notice how in this case they had clearly chosen only the meaning which directs to a confederation relationship, i.e. the active meaning! Notice also how they made the state to be “representing the distinct identity of Turkish Cypriots” alone! Of course, there are many more in this Annan plan constitution for the “TCCS,” such as the bringing of the entire state and its “subjects” under the principles of the father of the Turks (Ataturk,) etc!

Do you know of any other federation in which the regional state constitutions talk only on behalf of one ethnic group alone, or express the cultural identity of only one community, or express the “inherent sovereign will” of one ethnic element alone; as if the entire territory of the state to belong only to this group? Such things may only exist in confederations, in which two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states enter into a partnership agreement in the middle and form one central confederate government to take care of only a minimum of issues of common interest, while they continue to retain their pre-existing internal (and even external in some cases) sovereignty!

This was what the Annan plan was all about, no matter how it tried to disguise it and how many constructive ambiguities the foundation agreement contained!

[Jerry]

I have more than 400 posts on this site, if you care to look there are a few ideas there. As for ignoring and denying anything that does not fit my view I have yet to meet a Turkish Cypriot who will admit that the Cyprus problem goes beyond the events of the mid 20th Century or indeed beyond the shores of Cyprus.

Both sides are equally to blame for the current state of affairs. but you and your kind will never admit that will you.

Yet another prime example of your 8.07 pm post today(above). Repeating the same old arguments over again - and if I could be bothered I'd give the usual TC responses - but I can't because it gets us nowhere.

Oh how easily some GC can grant equal blame to two comunites of different numerical sizes and yet deny the concept of equality of communites at any other level.

OOOOO! you are far too clever for me Erol. I'm off on holiday!

[Piratis]

Erol, you cannot be what you want

No Bananiot, he can be whatever he chooses to be, what he can not do is to change like chameleon.

If he wants to be just Cypriot, great.
If he wants to be some "separate peoples" remnant of our former Ottoman rulers, then he has to take the responsibility for their actions in the same way he hold us responsible for what Cypriots have done in the past (and tries to use it as an excuse to violate our rights and occupy our country)