Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Thank you for your remembering me, Birkıbrıslı (note the undotted letter 'i' which certain parties would allege is only available on a special keyboard which Turks have exlusive access to - sorry to deflate these arguments but in fact you can set up windows to write in as many languages as you like, and you can switch from one to another at a click of the mouse), with your question:

Where is our friend TIM what's his name by the way???
I find his absence from this debate rather suspicious.

This is TIM what's his name, and although I have felt tempted to come in earlier, having been told by a resident of London to "keep your nose out", I decided that I was right in believing that, since the Cyprus problem can only be solved by Cypriots, foreigners should stay out.
Yes, since Cypriots have told me to stay away, I respect that, but on the other hand I have been invited to comment by a resident of Australia, so I will leave a few notes before I depart.
At the risk of "fueling any more fires", something which I have been requested to do by somebody who at least lives in Cyprus, I seriously wonder if by the same token persons of Cypriot decent who have chosen to make another country their permanent home have any more right than me to comment. I am a foreigner, but one who works and pays taxes to the government here, happens to love this country and its truly hospitable people and would love to see more nothing more an equitable settlement and the dismantling of the green line which scars this island. What happens here certainly impacts on me.
Yes, I lived in Turkey for a very long time and am very fluent in Turkish. This gives me certain insights into the way Cyprus is viewed from Turkey. Perhaps it makes me biased towards the Turkish position as some have suggested, although I am firmly opposed the Turkish military presence on this island (at least in excess of the numbers permitted under the agreements), and since in Turkey voicing this very opinion is an offence under the new Penal Code, I refuse to set foot on the soil of the Turkish Republic for as long as that particular article remains in force. So, if am biased towards the Turkish view, I am not aware of it. I strongly refute the claim that I am ignorant of the history of Cyprus, too. Since my arrival on this island I have read everything I can get my hands on on the subject, starting not from 1500 but with the first Neolithic settlements - I have also been to Choirokoitia to visit the remains of one such settlement. I wonder how many people who claim here to be interested in the history of Cyprus have done the same.
Of course, one piece of graffiti is the work of a mindless individual and, in itself, is not very important. My post was a kneejerk reaction after arriving home, having just witnessed these words which I personally found outrageous. In fact, nobody in ten pages of discussion has answered the basic question I posed in my post, but despite that I received a loud and clear answer. The few of you who understand this last point will enjoy a quiet chuckle. Those that don't will never understand anyway.
The reason that I referred to two well-documented massacres of innocent Turkish Cypriots was not because I am brainwashed by Turkish propaganda, but to show how disgusting this specific message is when viewed in a certain context. And by the way, I interpreted the message to mean "kill TCs", and other interpretations are possible. Believe me, I would be equally disgusted if I saw the words "Kill Greeks" written on a wall in north Cyprus, and may well have started a similar post in which I would have quoted a couple of well-documented massacres of innocent Greek Cypriot civilians with the aim of reinforcing my point.
Interestingly, though, as a frequent visitor to the occupied territories, I have never seen graffiti of this kind there. You never even see "TMT" scrawled on a wall, whereas you frequently see "ΕΟΚΑ" on walls here. Perhaps this provides some kind of insight into the different mentalities prevailing on both sides of the line. I seriously wonder, though, why if according to the discourse promoted by the Cyprus government EOKA-B was a "fascist organisation devoted to the overthrow of the legitimate government" which "staged a treacherous coup that opened the way for the occupation of one third of Cyprus", people here are quite happy to tolerate the presence of the slogan "EOKA-B" daubed inside a pedestrian underpass in the village of Erimi (close to the Buchaneer pub) - the said underpass was certainly built long after 1974. Does this not detract from the value of the memorials which were erected a couple of years ago to honour the memory of those who lost their lives while attempting to defend the Republic against against this illegal act? Or perhaps my petit bourgois British mentality attaches much more importance to such symbolic matters than they really merit.
I accept that the graffi I have drawn your attention to may be the work of provocators. No, I did not write it myself and since the words "Kill Turks" are interspersed with slogans written in Ελληνικα (shock, horror - he has his keyboard set up for Greek. What does that show?), a language that I cannot write properly, I claim "It wasn't me, guv". By the way θελω να μαθαινω Ελληνικα,but it takes time. However, one thing is for sure, the right-wing, chauvinist press in the so-called TRNC would have a field day if it got its hands on a photograph of what may seem to you like a childish prank. This is an aspect that appears to have escaped you. I was trying to use irony in my first post - note carefully the italics around "Motherland"- in an attempt to show how a message like this only serves to reinforce the arguments presented by the chauvinist segment of Turkish Cypriot society. I wonder how may GCs are aware that there are TCs who openly refer to the Turkish army as an "occupying force" and call for their removal. The daily "Afrika" does this through its columns every day. (Isn't it interesting to see the fresh input you can get from an intererested outsider who regularly reads the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot press?) And every peice of ammunition you hand to the chauvinists in the north harms the cause of those there who are trying to oppose, even if only in a small way, the Turkish occupation. Ever thought of that?
Anway, I promise never to darken your door again. Selamlar. Γεια σασ.

[Bananiot]

Lesson No. 1: Θέλω να μάθω Ελληνικά. Γεια σας!

So, you are beeing chased away by a bunch of hardliners! How does it feel?

[denizaksulu]

paaul12
there is no doubt that TURKEY etc will develop nuclear capacity ...it will attack other states and become just like IRAQ .In the 80s and 70s ..IRAQ ..was a U.S buddy ...

but like them Your country will be anailated when the time is right ..

you have one big worry ...see you are peeing off the syrains by cuting offf their water ..you make enemies with IRAQIS and bit by bit ..you empire will bat it self into the corner .....

Nuclear weapons are expensive .....RUSSIA IS WATCHING the area too so are your neigbours who dont trust you ...

You will never join the E.U ...the E.U wants democracy and intelectuals to work togeather ....

Show me this in Turkey .... a military state ...with a puppet government ...

Do they have 'magic mushrooms where you live. Give them up mate. They are bad for your imagination.

you will eat your own words ... i have never been wrong in 18 years of world poltical studies ....

More the pity. What a wasted education. You have learned to be Vitreolic and not realistic. Back to school for you.

[EPSILON]

Thank you for your remembering me, Birkıbrıslı (note the undotted letter 'i' which certain parties would allege is only available on a special keyboard which Turks have exlusive access to - sorry to deflate these arguments but in fact you can set up windows to write in as many languages as you like, and you can switch from one to another at a click of the mouse), with your question:

Where is our friend TIM what's his name by the way???
I find his absence from this debate rather suspicious.

This is TIM what's his name, and although I have felt tempted to come in earlier, having been told by a resident of London to "keep your nose out", I decided that I was right in believing that, since the Cyprus problem can only be solved by Cypriots, foreigners should stay out.
Yes, since Cypriots have told me to stay away, I respect that, but on the other hand I have been invited to comment by a resident of Australia, so I will leave a few notes before I depart.
At the risk of "fueling any more fires", something which I have been requested to do by somebody who at least lives in Cyprus, I seriously wonder if by the same token persons of Cypriot decent who have chosen to make another country their permanent home have any more right than me to comment. I am a foreigner, but one who works and pays taxes to the government here, happens to love this country and its truly hospitable people and would love to see more nothing more an equitable settlement and the dismantling of the green line which scars this island. What happens here certainly impacts on me.
Yes, I lived in Turkey for a very long time and am very fluent in Turkish. This gives me certain insights into the way Cyprus is viewed from Turkey. Perhaps it makes me biased towards the Turkish position as some have suggested, although I am firmly opposed the Turkish military presence on this island (at least in excess of the numbers permitted under the agreements), and since in Turkey voicing this very opinion is an offence under the new Penal Code, I refuse to set foot on the soil of the Turkish Republic for as long as that particular article remains in force. So, if am biased towards the Turkish view, I am not aware of it. I strongly refute the claim that I am ignorant of the history of Cyprus, too. Since my arrival on this island I have read everything I can get my hands on on the subject, starting not from 1500 but with the first Neolithic settlements - I have also been to Choirokoitia to visit the remains of one such settlement. I wonder how many people who claim here to be interested in the history of Cyprus have done the same.
Of course, one piece of graffiti is the work of a mindless individual and, in itself, is not very important. My post was a kneejerk reaction after arriving home, having just witnessed these words which I personally found outrageous. In fact, nobody in ten pages of discussion has answered the basic question I posed in my post, but despite that I received a loud and clear answer. The few of you who understand this last point will enjoy a quiet chuckle. Those that don't will never understand anyway.
The reason that I referred to two well-documented massacres of innocent Turkish Cypriots was not because I am brainwashed by Turkish propaganda, but to show how disgusting this specific message is when viewed in a certain context. And by the way, I interpreted the message to mean "kill TCs", and other interpretations are possible. Believe me, I would be equally disgusted if I saw the words "Kill Greeks" written on a wall in north Cyprus, and may well have started a similar post in which I would have quoted a couple of well-documented massacres of innocent Greek Cypriot civilians with the aim of reinforcing my point.
Interestingly, though, as a frequent visitor to the occupied territories, I have never seen graffiti of this kind there. You never even see "TMT" scrawled on a wall, whereas you frequently see "ΕΟΚΑ" on walls here. Perhaps this provides some kind of insight into the different mentalities prevailing on both sides of the line. I seriously wonder, though, why if according to the discourse promoted by the Cyprus government EOKA-B was a "fascist organisation devoted to the overthrow of the legitimate government" which "staged a treacherous coup that opened the way for the occupation of one third of Cyprus", people here are quite happy to tolerate the presence of the slogan "EOKA-B" daubed inside a pedestrian underpass in the village of Erimi (close to the Buchaneer pub) - the said underpass was certainly built long after 1974. Does this not detract from the value of the memorials which were erected a couple of years ago to honour the memory of those who lost their lives while attempting to defend the Republic against against this illegal act? Or perhaps my petit bourgois British mentality attaches much more importance to such symbolic matters than they really merit.
I accept that the graffi I have drawn your attention to may be the work of provocators. No, I did not write it myself and since the words "Kill Turks" are interspersed with slogans written in Ελληνικα (shock, horror - he has his keyboard set up for Greek. What does that show?), a language that I cannot write properly, I claim "It wasn't me, guv". By the way θελω να μαθαινω Ελληνικα,but it takes time. However, one thing is for sure, the right-wing, chauvinist press in the so-called TRNC would have a field day if it got its hands on a photograph of what may seem to you like a childish prank. This is an aspect that appears to have escaped you. I was trying to use irony in my first post - note carefully the italics around "Motherland"- in an attempt to show how a message like this only serves to reinforce the arguments presented by the chauvinist segment of Turkish Cypriot society. I wonder how may GCs are aware that there are TCs who openly refer to the Turkish army as an "occupying force" and call for their removal. The daily "Afrika" does this through its columns every day. (Isn't it interesting to see the fresh input you can get from an intererested outsider who regularly reads the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot press?) And every peice of ammunition you hand to the chauvinists in the north harms the cause of those there who are trying to oppose, even if only in a small way, the Turkish occupation. Ever thought of that?
Anway, I promise never to darken your door again. Selamlar. Γεια σασ.

Very well writen and is difficult for someone to disagree with this post.
Exempt of course of some of us, the Greeks of Cyprus. Our disagrement of course is not related to your position about the slogan in the wall on which we agree it should never be painted.

Our side we consider that manyl foreigners and many times also many so called "Cypriots" trying to find the reasons of the Cyprus problem and the possible solution make a basic mistake.

They are considering that the Island had two Ethnicities which started to kill each other and the problem related who killed more than the other.

I wrote many times in this forum that Cyprus Island was Worldwide accepted as an occupied Greek Island (by Ottomans and then by British).
Saying Greek Island i do not mean that the island was belong previously as area to the Greek state but just it was populated by Greeks and some ramains of the Ottoman occupation, so called Turkish Cypriots.

The right of the population to decide for their future it was expressed many times , particularly the last 30 years of British occupation. The decision was always the same and only one - UNION WITH GREECE.

Greeks of the Island , when they realised that their decistion will not be accepted peacefully by British started an armed fight against the occupator -1955-1959.

Until the begining of this fight there was not any dispute between the majority of Greeks and the remains of the Ottoman occupation. The so called Tcs were understanding the democratic right of the majority to decide for its destiny.

Suddently, 1956, the British made the very clever thing. They eployed poor Tcs as policemen to fight the Greeks who were fighting the British. By this movement Tcs became part of the occupator forces and therefore killings between GCS and TCS started, ending with the problem we have today, thanks to British.

Many of us in this forum declaring themselves as democratic people who are looking for a fair solution.

What was not fair or demicratic on Greeks of Cyprus to request Union with Greece? Nothing. And because some parents of us in this forum tried to stop the population democratic right , created what we have today.

It is very clear that under today's circumstances a peacful, democratic and fair solution can not be found in Cyprus .

Any solution it seems to be based on the power of arms since otherwise the majority of the Island would decide differently.

The Greek Cypriots leadership , by its policy during the last 33 years, suceeded that the international community to mix up the rights of victim and these of the invator. The still consider that Zurich treaty is in force, allowing Tcs to pay taxes to the invasion army but to have the full rights of the citizen of the Republic.

Unfortunately the only solution which may be can secure somehow the future of Greeks in Cyprus became to be the final devision of the Island or, in the best case, the today's situation.

I know that some Gcs will not accept my above statement because they are looking to the Cyprus problem from a different corner but , at least in South we have a democratic system and I can say what I am thinking without the licence of any General.

tks

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry Tim Drayton...
I couldn't remember your surname,and I was too tired and lazy to check.

I thought that was an easy way out. No disrespect intended.
I think what is needed in this forum is exactly voices like yours.Sensible,fresh,measured,intelligent...Why do you feel you need to disappear? You live in Cyprus and obviously care for it..Stay and get involved..None of us has the monopoly on the truth,or the key to the solution. I for one would be glad to hear your views,and I am sure there are plenty of others...So please,consider...

[erolz]

What was not fair or demicratic on Greeks of Cyprus to request Union with Greece? Nothing.

There was nothing wrong with you REQUESTING this as Greeks that lived in Cyprus rather than as the will of a unitary Cypriot people. What was wrong was trying to IMPOSE this Greek wish of a part of the Greek people on a different and seperate people for whom Cyprus was also their homeland , with no regard for their rights as a seperate (non Greek) people to self determination, using illegal violence and decpetion.

When you define yourself and your desires as those as of Greeks living in Cyprus and not as Cypriots that happen to have a Greek cultural background you loose the right to speak on behalf of all Cypriot people. When you seek /sought to impose these Greek desires (not Cypriot ones) on other Cypriots who are NOT Greek against their will and with no regard for their wishes, then you encourage and empower those non Greek Cypriots to resist your imposition.

What divided TC and GC was GC deciding that being Greek and forcing TC to be Greek against their will and the destruction of Cyprus as a nation and people was more important to them as Greeks than being Cypriot and finding a Cypriot vision of the future that was inclusive of all for whom Cyprus was their homeland not exclusive and that protected Cyprus as a nation and a untiary people.

You chose to be Greek above and before being Cypriot and in doing so you played a major and defining role in the destruction of Cyprus as a unitary nation AND people.

[Jerry]

Thank you for your remembering me, Birkıbrıslı (note the undotted letter 'i' which certain parties would allege is only available on a special keyboard which Turks have exlusive access to - sorry to deflate these arguments but in fact you can set up windows to write in as many languages as you like, and you can switch from one to another at a click of the mouse), with your question:

Where is our friend TIM what's his name by the way???
I find his absence from this debate rather suspicious.

This is TIM what's his name, and although I have felt tempted to come in earlier, having been told by a resident of London to "keep your nose out", I decided that I was right in believing that, since the Cyprus problem can only be solved by Cypriots, foreigners should stay out.
Yes, since Cypriots have told me to stay away, I respect that, but on the other hand I have been invited to comment by a resident of Australia, so I will leave a few notes before I depart.
At the risk of "fueling any more fires", something which I have been requested to do by somebody who at least lives in Cyprus, I seriously wonder if by the same token persons of Cypriot decent who have chosen to make another country their permanent home have any more right than me to comment. I am a foreigner, but one who works and pays taxes to the government here, happens to love this country and its truly hospitable people and would love to see more nothing more an equitable settlement and the dismantling of the green line which scars this island. What happens here certainly impacts on me.
Yes, I lived in Turkey for a very long time and am very fluent in Turkish. This gives me certain insights into the way Cyprus is viewed from Turkey. Perhaps it makes me biased towards the Turkish position as some have suggested, although I am firmly opposed the Turkish military presence on this island (at least in excess of the numbers permitted under the agreements), and since in Turkey voicing this very opinion is an offence under the new Penal Code, I refuse to set foot on the soil of the Turkish Republic for as long as that particular article remains in force. So, if am biased towards the Turkish view, I am not aware of it. I strongly refute the claim that I am ignorant of the history of Cyprus, too. Since my arrival on this island I have read everything I can get my hands on on the subject, starting not from 1500 but with the first Neolithic settlements - I have also been to Choirokoitia to visit the remains of one such settlement. I wonder how many people who claim here to be interested in the history of Cyprus have done the same.
Of course, one piece of graffiti is the work of a mindless individual and, in itself, is not very important. My post was a kneejerk reaction after arriving home, having just witnessed these words which I personally found outrageous. In fact, nobody in ten pages of discussion has answered the basic question I posed in my post, but despite that I received a loud and clear answer. The few of you who understand this last point will enjoy a quiet chuckle. Those that don't will never understand anyway.
The reason that I referred to two well-documented massacres of innocent Turkish Cypriots was not because I am brainwashed by Turkish propaganda, but to show how disgusting this specific message is when viewed in a certain context. And by the way, I interpreted the message to mean "kill TCs", and other interpretations are possible. Believe me, I would be equally disgusted if I saw the words "Kill Greeks" written on a wall in north Cyprus, and may well have started a similar post in which I would have quoted a couple of well-documented massacres of innocent Greek Cypriot civilians with the aim of reinforcing my point.
Interestingly, though, as a frequent visitor to the occupied territories, I have never seen graffiti of this kind there. You never even see "TMT" scrawled on a wall, whereas you frequently see "ΕΟΚΑ" on walls here. Perhaps this provides some kind of insight into the different mentalities prevailing on both sides of the line. I seriously wonder, though, why if according to the discourse promoted by the Cyprus government EOKA-B was a "fascist organisation devoted to the overthrow of the legitimate government" which "staged a treacherous coup that opened the way for the occupation of one third of Cyprus", people here are quite happy to tolerate the presence of the slogan "EOKA-B" daubed inside a pedestrian underpass in the village of Erimi (close to the Buchaneer pub) - the said underpass was certainly built long after 1974. Does this not detract from the value of the memorials which were erected a couple of years ago to honour the memory of those who lost their lives while attempting to defend the Republic against against this illegal act? Or perhaps my petit bourgois British mentality attaches much more importance to such symbolic matters than they really merit.
I accept that the graffi I have drawn your attention to may be the work of provocators. No, I did not write it myself and since the words "Kill Turks" are interspersed with slogans written in Ελληνικα (shock, horror - he has his keyboard set up for Greek. What does that show?), a language that I cannot write properly, I claim "It wasn't me, guv". By the way θελω να μαθαινω Ελληνικα,but it takes time. However, one thing is for sure, the right-wing, chauvinist press in the so-called TRNC would have a field day if it got its hands on a photograph of what may seem to you like a childish prank. This is an aspect that appears to have escaped you. I was trying to use irony in my first post - note carefully the italics around "Motherland"- in an attempt to show how a message like this only serves to reinforce the arguments presented by the chauvinist segment of Turkish Cypriot society. I wonder how may GCs are aware that there are TCs who openly refer to the Turkish army as an "occupying force" and call for their removal. The daily "Afrika" does this through its columns every day. (Isn't it interesting to see the fresh input you can get from an intererested outsider who regularly reads the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot press?) And every peice of ammunition you hand to the chauvinists in the north harms the cause of those there who are trying to oppose, even if only in a small way, the Turkish occupation. Ever thought of that?
Anway, I promise never to darken your door again. Selamlar. Γεια σασ.

Tim, you have every right to express your opinion in this forum, it's not a closed shop for Cypriots only. The fact that you choose to live in the ROC instead of the north, where you speak the language, is something your critics should think about. This forum could do with a few more contributors like yourself who can put a different slant on the Cyprus Problem.
Some Cypriots are only happy when hurling abuse at each other and repeating the same old arguments over and over again; which is probably why the problem persists and may never be solved.

[Jerry]

What was not fair or demicratic on Greeks of Cyprus to request Union with Greece? Nothing.

There was nothing wrong with you REQUESTING this as Greeks that lived in Cyprus rather than as the will of a unitary Cypriot people. What was wrong was trying to IMPOSE this Greek wish of a part of the Greek people on a different and seperate people for whom Cyprus was also their homeland , with no regard for their rights as a seperate (non Greek) people to self determination, using illegal violence and decpetion.

When you define yourself and your desires as those as of Greeks living in Cyprus and not as Cypriots that happen to have a Greek cultural background you loose the right to speak on behalf of all Cypriot people. When you seek /sought to impose these Greek desires (not Cypriot ones) on other Cypriots who are NOT Greek against their will and with no regard for their wishes, then you encourage and empower those non Greek Cypriots to resist your imposition.

What divided TC and GC was GC deciding that being Greek and forcing TC to be Greek against their will and the destruction of Cyprus as a nation and people was more important to them as Greeks than being Cypriot and finding a Cypriot vision of the future that was inclusive of all for whom Cyprus was their homeland not exclusive and that protected Cyprus as a nation and a untiary people.

You chose to be Greek above and before being Cypriot and in doing so you played a major and defining role in the destruction of Cyprus as a unitary nation AND people.

This is a prime example of my 8.07 pm post today(above). Repeating the same old arguments over again - and if I could be bothered I'd give the usual GC responses - but I can't because it gets us nowhere.

[erolz]

This is a prime example of my 8.07 pm post today(above). Repeating the same old arguments over again - and if I could be bothered I'd give the usual GC responses - but I can't because it gets us nowhere.

Nor does it get us anywhere to misunderstand or misrepresent the nature of the problem, like making out that the only reason TC and GC clashed was because of the British does. Until we can understand how Cypriots placing Greekness before Cypriotness and TC doing the same re Turkishness is at the root of our joint failure to build a CYPRIOT nation as CYPRIOTS, then we will get nowhere in any future efforts to build an inclusive CYPRIOT nation.

[Jerry]

This is a prime example of my 8.07 pm post today(above). Repeating the same old arguments over again - and if I could be bothered I'd give the usual GC responses - but I can't because it gets us nowhere.

Nor does it get us anywhere to misunderstand or misrepresent the nature of the problem, like making out that the only reason TC and GC clashed was because of the British does. Until we can understand how Cypriots placing Greekness before Cypriotness and TC doing the same re Turkishness is at the root of our joint failure to build a CYPRIOT nation as CYPRIOTS, then we will get nowhere in any future efforts to build an inclusive CYPRIOT nation.

Yet another prime example of my 8.07 pm post today(above). Repeating the same old arguments over again - and if I could be bothered I'd give the usual GC responses - but I can't because it gets us nowhere.