Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

I always say just 'cypriot' too.

[erolz]

"Majority rule" in a democratic Cyprus where each Cypriot is equal could very easily translate into "majority of TCs (e.g. 16% of the 18%)" + "minority of GCs (e.g. 35% of the 82%)" = 51% Majority of Cypriots. If you also consider that I talk about guaranteed proportional representation up to the level of President in addition to the minority rights that will safeguard the differences of TCs in language and religion, then I really don't understand how you can talk about TCs not having an effective voice or say. One thing is to demand your fair share (and you would get to more than 100% with what I propose), and a whole another to want to take our share as well.

You still just do not get it Piratis. Either you want a system that would allow the GC community alone to impose something as fundamantal as enosis on the TC community with the TC community having no effective say at all in this or you accept that on decisions such as these that are totally or almost totally 'communal' in their nature both communites should have an effective say in such fundamental decisions.

Your example above is clearly not a case of the issue being one of communites first and foremost. By definition if TC along with GC can make a majority of all Cypriots then the issue is not a 'commual' one and therefore principaly and indivdual one and thus there is nothing wrong with one person one vote. When there IS a problem is on issues that ARE primarily 'communal' issues - by defintion those issues where 90%+ of GC community want one thing BECAUSE they are GC and 90%+ TC oppose it because they are TC. It is on these issue that there is a problem, and specificaly because in the past it was exactly on such an issue (enosis) the GC community sought to impose its will on the TC community, in the process denying them an effective voice in the MOST fundamental decisions.

If the GC community had only ever insisted in one person one vote as a means of agreeing pan CYPRIOT objectives that were supported and opposed in BOTH communites that would be one thing. The reality is however that they sought historically to use 'one person one vote' to justify and impose a purely GC desire for Cyprus on all Cypriots with the TC deprived of any effective say in these COMMUNAL desires that fundamentaly affected their own shared homeland and futures. It is exactly because these desire were COMMUNAL in their very nature that one person one vote breaks down as an effective means of acheiving democracy and one community one vote becomes necessary. It is also why this 'hsitory' is directly relavent to this discussion today, where as your prattling on about ottoman oppresion is not.

[Piratis]

I want for Cyprus what exists in all other democratic countries. You are not the only ethnic minority and Cypriots are not the only ones that had a conflict in the past. So stop acting as if you are so special, the children of God, and you should have what no other minority has and gain it on our loss. If you want to apply some different kind of "democracy" then you should better start with the Kurds of Turkey, who have been oppressed like no other minority in the world (Kurds are the biggest ethnic group without a country and in fact they have been inhabiting the area long before the Turkish invadors occupied them)

What you want is something that exists nowhere, tailored made to your needs and demands. I could discuss with you some specific issues in order to "tweak" a bit the system in Cyprus, but the framework obviously should be the universal democratic principles as they exist in all other democratic countries and not your "common sense".

You should also learn the difference between "desires" and "rights". You should have your rights and we should have our rights. When everybody has his rights then we will see how many of the desires can be satisfied. You can not have your desire overwriting my rights (and vice versa).

[Chimera]

Majority (of individual) rule is ONE means to achieve democracy. It is NOT the end (point / objective) of democracy. The objective of democracy is that people have an EFFECTIVE say in the decisions that affect their lives....

The “majority rules” principle is directly related to numerical majority of a population and it’s unfortunate that the TC community is very much affected by this in Cyprus.

However, the very fact that the TC community is DISCERNIBLE from the remainder of Cypriots to the point where it requires and requests “minority rights” is the source of the problem itself.

Had the TC community NOT allowed its people to BELIEVE and AIM that they are “different” and simply accepted that what sets them apart from other Cypriot communities, such as language, religion, and culture, fall under “DIVERSITY” then none of the inter-communal animosity would exist.

It is also important to note that it’s much more practical and democratic for a numerical minority to tweak and streamline itself around the masses than the other way round.

Regards, GR.

In short become a Muslim Greek and like it. Sorry mate, no can do....and will you stop talking to yourself.

We are not a minority but founding partners of a republic. A republic in which we were murdered and held to ransom because of our ancestry so for you to say that we took ourselves out of the equation is laughable.

You are not founding members of the Republic of Cyprus, you just came along for the ride.

[Chimera]

haha, hmm.. for me it is hard.. but living in England i have always stated 'cypriot' when asked.

My father is German, Mother Cypriot.

I was born in Greece and live in the UK.

Could things get anymore confusing for me

Try this, Mother 3/4 Greek, I/4, German.
Farther 100% native, undeniable Cypriot.
Born on Cyprus.
Living in U.K., Greece, France and Cyprus.

But, as far as I can go back no Bloody Turks. Can't be all bad.

[Piratis]

It is also why this 'hsitory' is directly relavent to this discussion today, where as your prattling on about ottoman oppresion is not.

Everything is relevant to this discussion today, not just what suits you. Where have our "communal desires" been when we tried to revolt against you to liberate ourselves from your oppression and as a result you butchered us by the 1000s? I guess it was fine then? And I guess it is fine now that you have ethnically cleansed 100s of thousands of people from their homeland and you are calling it "Turkish". Where did the "communal desires" of those people go? Where did their human rights go? Where did international law go? You only want to remember what suits you, but sorry but I am not going to let you write your own history in this forum. If you want to go back to history to look for excuses to continue with more crimes and illegalities against us, then you should be ready to hear the parts that don't suit you as well.

I have said many times that we should leave the past behind and finally be allowed to have a truly democratic state in Cyprus without racist discriminations. I guess that doesn't suit you, since what you want is partition, and to Turkify part of our country. But if you are going to use history as means to excuse your illegalities and your unfair undemocratic demands, then you will hear the whole of history, and not the tiny parts that suit you that consist merely of your distorted version of a decade that happened 40 years ago, as if nothing had happened before and after that between TCs and GCs.

[erolz]

You are just ranting now Piratis.

[RichardB]

FAO chimera

Do you realise that you are probably the most obnoxious person ever to come on the forum?

Ive been here (on the forum ) for just over a year and until now have never felt the need to say that to anyone.

To put things simply I think that you are a troll just out to cause trouble whilst hiding behind a pseudonom and sitting behind the protection of you computer screen

How can you prove this

Farther 100% native, undeniable Cypriot.

You earlier on in this thread 'slagged' off a person by telling them that they are probably the product of the vikings or something along those lines

Tel me how YOU can prove that you father is 100% Cypriot are you sure that a few hundred years ago you Great Great Great Grandmother didnt have any Venitian , Lusuigian or any other nationality in her ?

Or maybe she just wanted some and couldnt get it !

You make me sick with your attitude why dont you just crawl back into the festering cesspit you came from

[Piratis]

You are just ranting now Piratis.

I was just trying to explain that History is a chain of events and everything is related. You can not just take your own version of a mere decade out of the 500 years we have lived together on this island, and based on that make the erroneous claim that more or less the GCs are the evils that can not be trusted, while TCs are the innocent victims, and for this reason in Cyprus we should apply a system which has nothing to do with the democratic systems that exist in all other democratic countries (many of which are multi-ethnic, and with conflicts in the past even worsts than ours)

Sorry, but when I hear claims like that when in fact Greek Cypriots have been the victims of foreign invasions and foreign rulers for the 99% of our history, then I can't just sit there and listen to you to paint us in such a negative way, while you totally forget the massive suffering you have caused to us.

The democratic principles and those of human rights should be accepted by everybody if we will finally one day have a normal country. If we are looking into history for excuses in order to maintain the division then obviously there is no way that the Cyprus problem will ever be solved by peaceful means.

[erolz]

You can not just take your own version of a mere decade out of the 500 years ....

I refered to a specific way that the GC leadership regarded democracy and how you regard it today as part of a specific discussion as to why I do not agree with you what democracy means and demands then or now, to show that your claim that it was the British that divided Cypriots was nonsense. In response you start ranting about ottomans and 500 years of history.

Sorry, but when I hear claims like that when in fact Greek Cypriots have been the victims of foreign invasions and foreign rulers for the 99% of our history, then I can't just sit there and listen to you to paint us in such a negative way, while you totally forget the massive suffering you have caused to us.

That you hear voices or imagine posts is not something I can be held responsible for or be expected to deal with. I made no claims 'like that' at all. My claim was and is that the way you 'define' democracy then and now, such that it means GC must be able to impose a purely GC communal desire on all Cyriots with no regard for TC and their communal wishes at all, is what divides us as communites then and now , and not as you claimed because the British made us.

The democratic principles and those of human rights should be accepted by everybody if we will finally one day have a normal country.

The simple plain reality is Piratis, that if you had got away with your defintion of what democracy requires in Cyprus in the 60's NEITHER of us would have state at all. As far as we would have a country, normal or otherwsie it would be Greece. That you think you can give our SHARED homeland to Greece , without those you share it with having any say in such a decision is the problem. THen and now.

If we are looking into history for excuses in order to maintain the division then obviously there is no way that the Cyprus problem will ever be solved by peaceful means.

What I am trying to do Piratis is explain to you why your assertion that it was the British that divided us as Cypriots is bollocks and why I as a TC do not accept that democracy demands that the GC community alone as a community should be able to impose anything it likes in Cyprus and the TC community should have no say in such fundamental decision about our shared homeland.

What will and does undoubtedly hinder progress of solving the Cyprus problem is when you are simply unable or unwilling to hear what I say but instead hear (imagine) things that I am not saying.