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[zan]

Faithful to what?

To good! Is that not what people think of religion.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against it but I just think we need to move on and take responsibility for our selves...It has served its purpose.

[Filitsa]

'That holy shape becomes a devil best'

Why it's Dr. Faustus!

Exit Devil ...

[Simon]

[quote]I don't think that by being educated in one department gives you the wisdom of solomon Simon. I did not mean that you have to be educated in another way in order to find true enlightenment without religion either.

I do not believe in many different levels and the most important one, as in what you are saying, is that I do not need to believe. I do not have a desire for religion. I can be good to my fellow man without it and I can be faithful without it.
[/quote]


Zan, I must say that this response is extremely vague and does not really address what I stated at all. You said "I find it hard to believe that educated people still have a need for it." Above, you have outlined what you did not mean, so now, why don't you tell me what you did mean? When using the word "educated" was you only referring to those with the wisdom of Solomon, as the above seems to imply?

[Filitsa]

Faithful to what?

To good! Is that not what people think of religion.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against it but I just think we need to move on and take responsibility for our selves...It has served its purpose.

I agree, Zan. We should be faithful to that which is good, but alas, different people have different ideas of goodness. I also agree that in part, being faithful to that which is good means being responsible for ourselves.

[Simon]

[quote]Don't get me wrong I have nothing against it but I just think we need to move on and take responsibility for our selves...It has served its purpose.[/quote]


Religion does not stop people taking responsibility for themselves. It certainly does not stop me anyway. In fact, I believe it actually does the opposite. Further, it obviously has not served its purpose, or else billions would not still believe in it. If it has served its purpose for you, fine, but I don't think you can speak of purpose for the rest of the world Zan, unless you have the wisdom of Solomon that is (being of the educated).

[zan]

I don't think that by being educated in one department gives you the wisdom of solomon Simon. I did not mean that you have to be educated in another way in order to find true enlightenment without religion either.

I do not believe in many different levels and the most important one, as in what you are saying, is that I do not need to believe. I do not have a desire for religion. I can be good to my fellow man without it and I can be faithful without it.

Zan, I must say that this response is extremely vague and does not really address what I stated at all. You said "I find it hard to believe that educated people still have a need for it." Above, you have outlined what you did not mean, so now, why don't you tell me what you did mean? When using the word "educated" was you only referring to those with the wisdom of Solomon, as the above seems to imply?

I see what you mean but I sort of did when I said that I do not believe on many levels.

History; shows us the evolution of religion and a round about time for its inception.
Science; shows us the real creation of matter


You can argue both these without the need for religion. That is where we are today. We do not have to guess at what is happening in the universe and if we do it is an educated one.

What my statement means is why, with this type of education, does anyone have a need for religion. It does not mean that they are not educated enough to understand but shows my lack of understanding of their lack of understanding. I suppose it is like a non-smoker fully understanding the need to smoke.

[Chimera]

I don't think that by being educated in one department gives you the wisdom of solomon Simon. I did not mean that you have to be educated in another way in order to find true enlightenment without religion either.

I do not believe in many different levels and the most important one, as in what you are saying, is that I do not need to believe. I do not have a desire for religion. I can be good to my fellow man without it and I can be faithful without it.

Zan, I must say that this response is extremely vague and does not really address what I stated at all. You said "I find it hard to believe that educated people still have a need for it." Above, you have outlined what you did not mean, so now, why don't you tell me what you did mean? When using the word "educated" was you only referring to those with the wisdom of Solomon, as the above seems to imply?

I see what you mean but I sort of did when I said that I do not believe on many levels.

History; shows us the evolution of religion and a round about time for its inception.
Science; shows us the real creation of matter


You can argue both these without the need for religion. That is where we are today. We do not have to guess at what is happening in the universe and if we do it is an educated one.

What my statement means is why, with this type of education, does anyone have a need for religion. It does not mean that they are not educated enough to understand but shows my lack of understanding of their lack of understanding. I suppose it is like a non-smoker fully understanding the need to smoke.

Well, that's about as clear as mud!
Science doesn't show us "the real creation of matter".
Matter was not "created".

[zan]

I don't think that by being educated in one department gives you the wisdom of solomon Simon. I did not mean that you have to be educated in another way in order to find true enlightenment without religion either.

I do not believe in many different levels and the most important one, as in what you are saying, is that I do not need to believe. I do not have a desire for religion. I can be good to my fellow man without it and I can be faithful without it.

Zan, I must say that this response is extremely vague and does not really address what I stated at all. You said "I find it hard to believe that educated people still have a need for it." Above, you have outlined what you did not mean, so now, why don't you tell me what you did mean? When using the word "educated" was you only referring to those with the wisdom of Solomon, as the above seems to imply?

I see what you mean but I sort of did when I said that I do not believe on many levels.

History; shows us the evolution of religion and a round about time for its inception.
Science; shows us the real creation of matter


You can argue both these without the need for religion. That is where we are today. We do not have to guess at what is happening in the universe and if we do it is an educated one.

What my statement means is why, with this type of education, does anyone have a need for religion. It does not mean that they are not educated enough to understand but shows my lack of understanding of their lack of understanding. I suppose it is like a non-smoker fully understanding the need to smoke.

Well, that's about as clear as mud!
Science doesn't show us "the real creation of matter".
Matter was not "created".

Really Where else does it exist

[Simon]

Zan, stating that you did not believe on many levels did not answer anything I raised, at least not directly. As I said, too vague. Anyway, on your point re history and science; understanding the evolution of religion does not, in my opinion, discount it. Indeed, some use it as proof of God, as various differing cultures have always believed in some form of deity or deities. For example, if Jesus really did everything the Gospels attributed to him, and you believe in those eye-witness accounts of Jesus, then, evolution of religion becomes irrelevant. It is a question of faith, not wisdom. Some choose to believe, some don't.

Science does not tell us fully how matter was created, as we only ever start from the Big Bang, which of course leads to the question, what existed to cause the Big Bang?


[quote]You can argue both these without the need for religion. That is where we are today. We do not have to guess at what is happening in the universe and if we do it is an educated one. [/quote]

Yes, and they can be argued with religion as well. Like I said, a matter of choice, not so much a 'need'. Having knowledge of how our Universe works again does not prevent people believing in God. There are in any event, many unsatisfactory theories within Science in my opinion; such as macro-evolution.


[quote]What my statement means is why, with this type of education, does anyone have a need for religion. It does not mean that they are not educated enough to understand but shows my lack of understanding of their lack of understanding. I suppose it is like a non-smoker fully understanding the need to smoke.[/quote]


Again Zan, you seem hung up on 'need'. If you believe in something, it is generally not out of need, it is simple belief. Obviously, I can of course only speak for myself; however, I do not believe people wake-up one morning and decide they need to believe because their lives are empty or because they do not understand the evolution of religion or mankind; but is simply based on their own personal beliefs and experiences. At least, this is the case with the religious people I associate with. (By the way, just to correct any assumption you may have of my beliefs, I consider myself an agnostic theist).

[zan]

Zan, stating that you did not believe on many levels did not answer anything I raised, at least not directly. As I said, too vague. Anyway, on your point re history and science; understanding the evolution of religion does not, in my opinion, discount it. Indeed, some use it as proof of God, as various differing cultures have always believed in some form of deity or deities. For example, if Jesus really did everything the Gospels attributed to him, and you believe in those eye-witness accounts of Jesus, then, evolution of religion becomes irrelevant. It is a question of faith, not wisdom. Some choose to believe, some don't.

Science does not tell us fully how matter was created, as we only ever start from the Big Bang, which of course leads to the question, what existed to cause the Big Bang?

You can argue both these without the need for religion. That is where we are today. We do not have to guess at what is happening in the universe and if we do it is an educated one.

Yes, and they can be argued with religion as well. Like I said, a matter of choice, not so much a 'need'. Having knowledge of how our Universe works again does not prevent people believing in God. There are in any event, many unsatisfactory theories within Science in my opinion; such as macro-evolution.

What my statement means is why, with this type of education, does anyone have a need for religion. It does not mean that they are not educated enough to understand but shows my lack of understanding of their lack of understanding. I suppose it is like a non-smoker fully understanding the need to smoke.

Again Zan, you seem hung up on 'need'. If you believe in something, it is generally not out of need, it is simple belief. Obviously, I can of course only speak for myself; however, I do not believe people wake-up one morning and decide they need to believe because their lives are empty or because they do not understand the evolution of religion or mankind; but is simply based on their own personal beliefs and experiences. At least, this is the case with the religious people I associate with.

Again you are trying to explain things through the darkness that religion is. If we don't know then it must be something to do with religion. Religion takes over where science cannot explain. It has gone on throughout history and religion has been pushed back further and further. First the land and then the world and then the constellation and now the universe. Stevens Hawkings said that we do not need to know what was before the Big bang because what ever it was does not work in our physics. I don't NEED to know further than that. I understand that concept and it works. You are questioning that concept and therefore NEED an answer and religion works well in those circumstances.

I agree with you that religion comes from life and experiences but that does not justify the need. We can take out religion today and still function perfectly well. Take out science and we come to a stand still in time.

As I said I am not having a go at religion and those that want it can have it but I don't understand why they would. I also resent those that tell me that I am bad or not complete without it.