Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

4. I had not seen any maps of Cyprus created in 1950s that depicted the borders same as those of today. I would be very interested to see the map with a source quote please. People always come up with these conspiracy theories, especially when they are not aware of real facts.

Maps for partition were actually made in the 60s.
Here’s what Gallo Plazas report of 1965 says in paragraph 73.

73. Their proposal envisaged a compulsory exchange of population in order to bring
about a state of affairs in which each community would occupy a separate part of the
island. The dividing line was in fact suggested: to run from the village of Yalia on the
north-western coast through the towns of Nicosia in the centre, and Famagusta in the east.
The zone lying north of this line was claimed by the Turkish-Cypriot community; it is
said to have an area of a about 1,084 square miles or 38 per cent of the total area of the
Republic. An exchange of about 10,000 Greek families for about the same number of
Turkish families was contemplated.


In 1965 Kutchuck submitted on a map taksim proposals dividing Cyprus to North and South. Since the 1974 Turkish invasion deviated from the 1965 plan only in minor details, I have trouble accepting your statement that the invasion was not planned. On the other hand Denktash himself contradicted your argument of protectionism of the TCs when he stated, "Even if the Turkish-Cypriots did not exist, Turkey would not have left Cyprus to Greece."

NB. A sincere advice BigOz. If you want to understand the situation of the 60s concentrate ONLY on UN reports and documents.

[bigOz]

I was not being confrontational either Kikapu, it is the way I respond and come accross sometime - that's just me I am afraid!

I do not disagree with many of your points and I am fully aware of the better alternatives that could have been. But there are so many variables in aconflict as such, it is impossible to predict or plan exactly what could have happened. I am a strong believer in seeing things from different perspectives and that is why I like putting the opposite argument from the other's perspective...

Pyrpolizer wrote

On one hand we hear all the time from TC posters the RoC has to show it cares for the tCs, on the other whatever she does in that direction is called propaganda...

So BigOz what would you like Roc to do to benefit the TCs (other than giving indirect recognition) that you would not call propaganda?

An action would be interprfeted as genuine "good will" and not propaganda, if it was treated as a normal part of a society's everyday life by the acting authorities and the people they represent. When there is repeated media coverage of such an action whether in the press, forums or TV/Radio, and turns into some self-satisfying gloating exercise or a tool for an attempt to belittle the beneficiary, then that good intention has flown out if the window! Instead it is looked upon with suspicion and as nothing more than a propaganda. Why propaganda? Because when considering the rections of the helpers reflected in the media as mentioned above, it becomes clear that not many might be happy with what's going on. It then makes the beneficiary think this is some kind of a show - put on not because they really care for their well being, but because there is a political gain in there somewhere, so that is why they are grinning and bearing it. Hence, the conclusion for the purpose of such an action becomes = propaganda.

I hope you follow what I am talking about P. If serious about a united Cyprus, forget about giving medical treatment to TCs - they are not Ruandan refugees! Allow unrestricted free trade between the two communities - show some real good will and let them catch up with the rest of the island's economy in preparation for a united one Republic. Do that and all TCs will vote for one island one nation - albeit initially based on a federal structure of some kind!

But these are simple things to be done if one is serious about about finding a solution - are they? I say not many GCs or the current RoC are. That is why they cannot stop talking about the the same old moulded topics and hate generating reminders of what happened to whom when - whether it is the current presence of the Turkish army, or the sale of property in the North etc. Put your hand on your heart and you tell me P, does all that really matter if the agreement will compensate everyone who has lost land and property in the past, and Cyprus will be for Cypriots with a true Cypriot identity based on two major communities of different religion, living in harmony?

[bigOz]

4. I had not seen any maps of Cyprus created in 1950s that depicted the borders same as those of today. I would be very interested to see the map with a source quote please. People always come up with these conspiracy theories, especially when they are not aware of real facts.

Maps for partition were actually made in the 60s.
Here’s what Gallo Plazas report of 1965 says in paragraph 73.

73. Their proposal envisaged a compulsory exchange of population in order to bring
about a state of affairs in which each community would occupy a separate part of the
island. The dividing line was in fact suggested: to run from the village of Yalia on the
north-western coast through the towns of Nicosia in the centre, and Famagusta in the east.
The zone lying north of this line was claimed by the Turkish-Cypriot community; it is
said to have an area of a about 1,084 square miles or 38 per cent of the total area of the
Republic. An exchange of about 10,000 Greek families for about the same number of
Turkish families was contemplated.


In 1965 Kutchuck submitted on a map taksim proposals dividing Cyprus
to North and South. Since the 1974 Turkish invasion deviated from the 1965 plan only in minor details, I have trouble accepting your statement that the invasion was not planned. On the other hand Denktash himself contradicted your argument of protectionism of the TCs when he stated, "Even if the Turkish-Cypriots did not exist, Turkey would not have left Cyprus to Greece."

NB. A sincere advice BigOz. If you want to understand the situation of
the 60s concentrate ONLY on UN reports and documents.

I found the Gallo Plaza report

Thanks P. But I actually livet through the troubles in Cyprus with first hand experience on what actually went on militarily and politically. I will not have some UN bureaucrat tell me what I went through or what happened in my country! The UN were just tourists watching over the conflicts, with no real power to stop anyone from doing anything for too many years in Cyprus.

Military invasion of Cyprus was planned on many occasions by Turkey, every time a TC village or enclave was attacked by GCs between 1963-1968. Yes, there were also different partition plans present that ranged from Turkish enclaves in many different areas - separated from each other, to the third of the island in the North. The North being nearest to the mainland Turkish coast. After all a partition would have meant sharing the island between Greece and Turkey, and the North would have been the sensible extension of the Turkey's natural borders!

My point was and still is, there is no need for all these conspiracy theories. Everything that went on was the natural course following many years of claims, demands, counter claims and counter demands going back many decades. This is exactly what happened during 1974 whether it was an attempt to make ENOSIS a reality or the subsequent invasion that followed resulting in the division of the island not too different from what the TCs wanted in the past. What I am saying is - lets move on from all that! What happens next?

[Pyrpolizer]

When there is repeated media coverage of such an action whether in the press, forums or TV/Radio, and turns into some self-satisfying gloating exercise or a tool for an attempt to belittle the beneficiary,

But here’s exactly where you are wrong. There is ABSOLUTELY no repeatition in either the press or the media TV/Radio. In fact if you notice carefully the one who said it witnessed it himself by visiting hospitals.
In this forum there is repeatition, but forums are not Government controlled, in fact you can see more Bayrak announcements in this foum that RoC ones… I wouldn’t call that propaganda though.

Allow unrestricted free trade between the two communities - show some real good will and let them catch up with the rest of the island's economy in preparation for a united one Republic. Do that and all TCs will vote for one island one nation - albeit initially based on a federal structure of some kind!

But that’s a huge problem even with the EU itself. Unrestricted trade is totally impossible, it is totally impossible between 2 separate nations too. the occupied part acts as a separate nation…
Even in a United Cyprus the TCs will never catch economically unless they let the GCs invest there. They don’t even want that because they say it’s going to crash their own bussiness.

Put your hand on your heart and you tell me P, does all that really matter if the agreement will compensate everyone who has lost land and property in the past, and Cyprus will be for Cypriots with a true Cypriot identity based on two major communities of different religion, living in harmony?

Imo DAY 1 after a solution will not guarantee anything. It may lead to final partition, it may lead to a truly United Cyprus as you described it. Yes there is a huge problem with compensations because A)Who has the money to compensate who, and at what price?? B) What if the solution is manipulated by your side to bring in a final partition.
We the Gcs would have SOLD PART OF OUR OWN COUNTRY TO TURKEY AND NOT ONLY THAT BUT FOR PEANUTS AND VERESIYE

NB. Verisiye is when you sell on credit (not cash)

[Pyrpolizer]

What I am saying is - lets move on from all that! What happens next?

Ha! What's next! I don't know my friend, I 've put my thoughts down many times as to what should happen to move forward. I really don't have a magic formula.

Perhaps if in 20 years the sun burns the whole place down, and there is no water to even drink, and the environment is so much destroyed that it won't worth living here, the few inhabitants who will chose to remain have no problem uniting and kicking rocks and dust moving from one side to the other of this desert.

[Kikapu]

What I am saying is - lets move on from all that! What happens next?

The answer for your question BigOz is.........

"Kofi Kikapu's peace solution for Cyprus".......

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh boy! When did you write that Kikapu? I never saw it.
Hmm 4 of July, where was I??

Jumping there right now.

[Kikapu]

Oh boy! When did you write that Kikapu? I never saw it.
Hmm 4 of July, where was I??

Jumping there right now.

It was my 4th of July, American Independence Day present to Cyprus.

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh, it was posted in another section of the forum called "solution proposals".
I thought that was an almost dead section, but it seems sometimes it resurrects

[zan]

What I am saying is - lets move on from all that! What happens next?

The answer for your question BigOz is.........

"Kofi Kikapu's peace solution for Cyprus".......

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12055

Lets hope it draws more people into the thread this time Kiks


Did you send it to the UN What did they say.......