Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

@ GR & Kikapu,

I owe you guys a "spicy" answer some other time. I don't feel like answering after those posts for rapes... Rape comes from sick murderers, and there are rapists unfortunately in every nation.

Now on a serious note Murataga asked what was the biggest desire of the GC community. I basically said that a community is made of people. I really DOUBT the biggest desire of ANYONE had anything to do with political desires.First and outmost for every person, is good health, happy family,a good job etc.
Even today do you think there are many GCs whose biggest desire is the solution to the Cyprob?Well most refugees might think about it for a couple of minutes while listening to the news but that's it.

That being well said; let me underline that I didn`t ask for the strongest desire of the GC community but the stronger desire among the two options.

True but I could equally ask you which is your stronger desire a)to die from car accident or b)caught in a fire? You would of course take the liberty and say none of the two, and that's what I did as well!

[Pyrpolizer]

During the invasion leaflets were dropped from air to that effect, explaining the Turkey's intentions and for GCs to lay down their arms - guaranteeing they would be treated with respect and dignity.

What respect and dignity those people got bigOz?

Or this person?

Extract from a prisoners document.
Sunday, 24th of August 1974. Five days after the arrest of 13 local people from a team of Turkish Cypriot soldiers and Turkish soldiers from Turkey. Until today they are missing. One of them is my uncle S.H, brother of my mother.
An ordinary summer day but without any comparison with the previous days. Every body was scared waiting for the Turkish army to invate the village. Any thoughts of leaving the village were lost since everybody new that the town of Famagusta was occupied by the Turkish army and the main road was closed. The last groups of Greek Cypriot soldiers left the area on the 16th and 17th of August. Two families managed to leave the village with great difficulty. The rest of the people had no choice but to remain in the village.
On the 24th of August 1974 following an order from the Turkish army commander all the habitants gather in the churchyard. A board of Turkish commanders ordered the women, girls, boys and the older people to separate from the rest and they were let free to go home. The rest of the men passed through the board of commanders and they selected 110 prisoners. Among them were my father and myself. Using seven busses they took us to the army camp called ?Akrades? just outsude the village of Saint Andronicos. There we were put in shelters and forced to sit down. Those who had moustache were ordered to weed it out. Luckily for them, it happened to have on me a nail clipper so they used it to cut their moustache. One of them was my father.
We were held for two days without food and water. Continuously they were questioning all of us especially those they believed that had involvement in the coup to overthrown Makarios .
A Turkish cypriot soldier was hitting and kicking everybody. At some stage he ordered a teacher sitting next to me to open his legs so that he can kick him. Unlucky for me, he missed and he kicked my feet. One of my sandal was broken and therefore for the rest of my capture I was without shoes.
We were taken in teams to the toilet. Actually 3 or 4 people every time. Some soldiers were accompanied us. It was very difficult to escape.
On the 26th of August 1974 they brought 120 new prisoners from the village of Rizokarpaso and Ayia Triada. They put them in shelters next to the one we were kept. The next three days were horrible. Most of the prisoners were interrogated, including myself. The soldiers were kicking and hitting with their guns the prisoners. We had no food for three days and things were getting worse. Personally, I was thinking that soon they free us.
Of course I wrong was because on the 27th of August they embarked us on several buses and we headed towards the town of Famagusta. Basically we had no idea where we were taken. Armed soldiers were guarding the busses. Therefore any thoughts of escaping was out of question.
At some point the busses turned right heading towards the mountain of Pentadaktylos and more specifically towards the castle Kantara. Suddenly we saw a United Nations helicopter closing us. The helicopter landed next to the busses and the UN officers started talking with the Turkish officers.
After 2 or 3 hours the busses started to move again. On the way we were able to see the burned forests and the abandoned village of Davlos.
We passes through the town of Kyrenia and headed towards Nicosia.
Around 7 o?clock in the night we reached the outskirts of Nicosia. Of course in the occupied area.
Suddenly a mass of Turkish cypriots civilians children, men, women and older people started shouting and hitting the busses with wooden bats. Some of them were saying ?Kill them, kill them?. It was the first time that I felt scared.
In a while we reached the garage of Pavlides. This was the place where prisoners were searched and registered. The whole process ended around midnight. Being tired from the journey and the whole process we started looking for a place in that building to have a rest. The prisoners were on top of each other. The toilets were sordidly.
My main concern was not to loose my father and the rest of the people from my village.
This was the fourth day in the prison without food

[Murataga]

@ GR & Kikapu,

I owe you guys a "spicy" answer some other time. I don't feel like answering after those posts for rapes... Rape comes from sick murderers, and there are rapists unfortunately in every nation.

Now on a serious note Murataga asked what was the biggest desire of the GC community. I basically said that a community is made of people. I really DOUBT the biggest desire of ANYONE had anything to do with political desires.First and outmost for every person, is good health, happy family,a good job etc.
Even today do you think there are many GCs whose biggest desire is the solution to the Cyprob?Well most refugees might think about it for a couple of minutes while listening to the news but that's it.

That being well said; let me underline that I didn`t ask for the strongest desire of the GC community but the stronger desire among the two options.

True but I could equally ask you which is your stronger desire a)to die from car accident or b)caught in a fire? You would of course take the liberty and say none of the two, and that's what I did as well!

I don`t think your example correlates well here. Certainly you appreciate the difference between the choices of individuals about options of the type death in future and the actual choices of a community regarding the Cyprus problem that was made is not quite comparable. You can surely argue that neither was the choice regarding the Cyprus Problem, in which case I`d love to hear what it was from your point of view. But the standing fact is that the GCs did make a choice about the Cyprus Problem which determined their stance in these critical 14 years. Which of the two do you think was it; or was there another one that you wish to elaborate on?

[Pyrpolizer]

I already answered you Murataga.

However you have not yet given your answer here:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus12709.html

[Murataga]

A choice was made by the GCs about the Cyprus Problem. What do you think that choice was, whether it be the two I have presented or something else? Don`t try to change the subject by stating that people had other priorities than the Cyprus Problem. That may well be, but nevertheless, a choice was made about the Cyprus Problem. What was it?

[cypezokyli]

When mass graves of TC civilians - mainly elderly people, women and children were discovered in no less than 3 villages few miles from Famagusta - a repeat and reminder of what was happening during 1963-67 era - the whole operation now had a new purpose. To secure an area of land where TCs can be safely kept. This was encouraged more so by tens of thousands of refugees from Limassol and Paphos region, most of them who had left all their earthly posessions to live in tents in the safety of British sovereign bases.

this argument would have been correct assuming that the three villages were attacked before the second phase of the invasion.

check your dates

as far as i know the three villages were attacked AFTER the second phase. in this respect this argument has no basis.

in this respect the question of kikapu and halil still remains unanswered

1.why Turkey didn't just restore "Law and Order" after kicking Sampson out ?
1.why Turkey didn't put Dr Fazil Kucuk as a president of the Cyprus by taking whole of the Cyprus ? till restore "Law and Order"

I have checked my dates cypezokyli and below might help you understand why you might be wrong. I cannot get internet links for these because they do not exist in the internet file archives (most newspapers started to keep them after 1990s and some might have copies dating back another 5 years or so but nothing original for 1974). However I am supplying you with the names and dates of the relevant newspapers so feel free to prove me a liar, if you like to contact and check with them first:

- On 23rd July 1974 the Washington Post - also Times, Guardian, 23rd July 1974 reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived."

- UN Committee on Missing Persons (CMP): On 6 December 2002, excavations at the village of Alaminos, led to the discovery of human remains, which according to existing testimonies, belonged to Turkish Cypriots who lost their lives during a fire exchange with a unit of the National Guard, on 20 July 1974.

- On 24th July 1974 France Soir reported: "The Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenceless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuated their homes and go and live in tents in the forests. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity."

- The German newspaper Die Zeit wrote on 30 August 1974: the massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta is the proof of how justified the Turks were to undertaken their (August) intervention.

The fact that the actual location of the mass graves in Famagusta were discovered after the second invasion is often misleadingly used to imply that no one was aware of what happened beforehand. Everyone knew there was a destruction of Turkish villages and inhabitants in those areas. For example, as when Soir reported the destruction of the Turkish villages in Famagusta area (in July), because the evidence was buried, they thought the inhabitants were hiding in nearby woodlands or whatever. Nevertheless it was clear to everyone that Turkish vilages were under attack prior to August 1974.

The three villages were not attacked after the second phase of the invasion but long before. The decomposing bodies of the victims were also a testimony to the fact that the attacks were not recent! Furthermore, if you care to use some logic: the second phase of the invasion lasted around two days - I believe it started on 14th August before a cease-fire was declared on 16th. Do you seriously believe that in the face of the advancing tanks to the area on the first day, the fleeing National guard were so foolish, they spent many hours gathering up civilians in various villages and shooting them, before using earth diggers to dig huge holes for mass graves and burying them? And repeating the same in three villages? I promise you there was no one in sight by lunchtime the first day of the second phase. Turkish tanks just advanced into Famagusta unopposed and with almost no resistance because everyone had long been gone.

i am sorry , i though that you were reffering to the sandalari case.

but from the above, the same thing is again proven
attacks on the tcs were provoked by the turkish invasion.
and the attacks you mention happened so long there was fighting.
was there ever a possibility, that turkey would attack and the gcs would not have attacked tcs ? !!!

When the invasion started, Ecevit made it very clear in the international media that the military action was to restore the Republic's status, it was not aimed at the GCs, and under the circumstances it was to ensure the safety of all inhabitants of Cyprus - not just the TCs. During the invasion leaflets were dropped from air to that effect, explaining the Turkey's intentions and for GCs to lay down their arms - guaranteeing they would be treated with respect and dignity. These were dropped on an island already occupied by UN-F-CYP who also read them, hence they could not have been a bluff. A copy of one was displayed by iceman in another thread couple of months ago.

Having made their intentions clear and expecting no resistance from the locals, the landing forces headed for one of the least favourable and most defended beach heads, few miles West of Kyrenia. This was the start of things going wrong and the whole invasion process turning into something else.

let me tell you how this sounds to me

before the invasion in iraq, the bush goverment called the press and told them of their good intentions (destroying WMDs, destroying the links with al quada..... removing a dictator....etc).
ofcource the US made it clear that it had no intentions to harm innocent civilians.
As a proof off that the US airforce before they attacked they threw leafleats, prooving their good intentions..... because, as we all very well know leaflets thrown by an airforce, at times of war, always reflect the truth and are never propaganda.

having made their intentions clear, they were surprised that some people resisted. i mean, when the attacking army repeatetly states its good intentions, it should expect that noone would resist. as a consequence the whole invasion turned to something else....


I hope you understand my problem.

[zan]

Nevertheless it was clear to everyone that Turkish vilages were under attack prior to August 1974



Look at those dates AGAIN Cyp.

[Kikapu]

Which do you believe was a stronger desire for the GC community between the time the RoC was established and 1974:

(a) to unite Cyprus with Greece - ENOSIS; or

(b) to live as an independent State where power is shared with the TCs?

And could you also state what was the strongest action that the GC community undertook to achieve/show this for your selected answer. Thanks.

For the first 8 years or so, it was ENOSIS by a vast majority of GCs. Not all who had this desire had the will to kill all TCs. However the leadership never stopped talking of the EOKA "heroes" of the past and the "megalo idea".

Everyone can deny the above, and look for reports in the Greek press at the time - but I know it by hard! We had a good reception of the RoC TV and I used to listen to the patriotic speeches given by the GC leaders with my family, horrified at the contents. This was at every opportunity when a leader visited a village or when it was a Greek national day of some kind. Those who are too young to know are now coming with all sorts of rubbish and asking for proof etc. Those who are over 45 probably know exactly what I am talking about. ENOSIS was the only desire in those times...

During the next half of this saga, between 1968 -1974 Makarios and many of his followers realised Cyprus had a much stronger economy, better standard of life, and even social ethics than mainland Greece. With the TCs dwindling in numbers due to mass exodus by the young since 1963, it was only a matter of time before the whole of Cyprus would be ruled by GCs and the Church AS A REPUBLIC.

Being a seasoned politician by now, Makarios could see the sense in not threatening the TCs (who were not clearly a threat to any GC) and allowing them some freedom in an effort to dissolve the enclaves. Hence, the one-sided opening up of the cross-border gates to TCs for travelling around the whole of Cyprus. He became more tolerant of Denktash and there were some giant leaps towards a lasting peace in terms of inter-communal negotiations just before 1974.

GCs being strong supporters of Makarios went along with his desires, and now these have shifted from ENOSIS to Cyprus Republic for Cypriots. However, his change of heart was not favoured by many hard core Enosis supporters or Greece (ruled by the ENOSIS supporting JUNTA), both of whom Makarios underestimated - relying on the weak independent status of RoC.

That is when all hell broke loose between Makarios and Enosis supporters during 1974! So, in short the answer would be "yes" to Enosis for the first 6 years after 1960, but "No" to Enosis by the majority (if not all) for the next 6 years after that... But the ENOSIS supporters had won and replaced Makarios with their own EOKA member Nikos Sampson. He would have probably lasted a lot longer and murdered many more GCs and TCs, probably a lot more than who had subsequently died as a result of the Turkish invasion in response!

Put the patriotic feelings aside and tell me what I witnessed, saw and heard as above was just a nightmare and not a reality - if you dare!

In that case, I don't know why Turkey didn't just restore "Law and Order" after kicking Sampson out, and turn the Republic back to the Cypriots, if large majority indeed did not want Enosis. So why are we were we are today, if the Enosis trouble makers were only a very small minority, that had been already taken care of by Turkey in the first few days of the Coup, and Makarios was not seen as a threat to the TC's for 6 years before, leading to the Coup in '74 by the Junta.. This would have been welcomed by all Cypriots, GC's and TC's for Turkey's role as a Intervening Guarantor Power, which what she signed up to do in the first place.

You have a point there - but a closer look at the subsequent events would explain why things had develped the way they have.

The large majority did not want Enosis, but by the same token, because in response to GC demands for Enosis, the TCs had been asking for "partition" which in effect was a demand for double Enosis; i.e. the island should be divided by Greece and Turkey. The above being the case, there was great mistrust between the two communities and to their respective motherlands (Greece and Turkey) who were portrayed as parties interested in annexing Cyprus.

When the invasion started, Ecevit made it very clear in the international media that the military action was to restore the Republic's status, it was not aimed at the GCs, and under the circumstances it was to ensure the safety of all inhabitants of Cyprus - not just the TCs. During the invasion leaflets were dropped from air to that effect, explaining the Turkey's intentions and for GCs to lay down their arms - guaranteeing they would be treated with respect and dignity. These were dropped on an island already occupied by UN-F-CYP who also read them, hence they could not have been a bluff. A copy of one was displayed by iceman in another thread couple of months ago.

Having made their intentions clear and expecting no resistance from the locals, the landing forces headed for one of the least favourable and most defended beach heads, few miles West of Kyrenia. This was the start of things going wrong and the whole invasion process turning into something else.

Turkish army's major losses was during the first landings as above, when artillery and heavy machine fire greeted them from concrete pillar boxes (still along the coast and mountains to this day). Once the infantry faced such fire power, the warships opened fire on all suspected military positions OUTSIDE OCCUPIED AREAS such as Kyrenia town itself and the surrounding villages. Soon after GCs new fanatic leaders (Samson) and military realised an invasion was on the way, attacks on all Turkish enclaves in Paphos, Nicosia, Famagusta, Lefka spontaneously followed. Paratroopers landing as part of the invasion process also met heavy resistance from the expecting National Guard and mainland Greek forces on the ground. The same forces started a major offensive using artillery and tanks against a handful of mainland Turkish infantry division stationed in "Gonyeli" as part of the 1960 agreements.

By now the whole thing had gone out of hand, with fightings in and around all Turkish enclaves with foreign media reports of attacks on Turkish civilians by the retreating Greek forces. Knowing that TCs outside Turkish military controlled areas were vulnerable and under constant threat of an attack / extermination, the military decided to move towards enclaves in Famagusta and Lefke-Morphou areas. Before the tank regiments could reach Famagusta, the Turkish enclave in the main town had been bombarded by mortars for weeks.

When mass graves of TC civilians - mainly elderly people, women and children were discovered in no less than 3 villages few miles from Famagusta - a repeat and reminder of what was happening during 1963-67 era - the whole operation now had a new purpose. To secure an area of land where TCs can be safely kept. This was encouraged more so by tens of thousands of refugees from Limassol and Paphos region, most of them who had left all their earthly posessions to live in tents in the safety of British sovereign bases.

RoC allowed Turkish refugees in their thousands to be ferried from the British bases to North, under UN supervision. From then on, the initial purpose and aim of the invasion had shifted considerably, because for all intents and purposes GCs and the Turkish army had now become enemies and that included the TCs and GCs who had both suffered great losses (albeit the GCs a lot more in terms of human losses - that was magnified even more so by the deaths of many who supported Makarios after the coup).

So as you can see, it is not a simple case of Turkey waking up one morning and deciding to divide the island into two. The whole operation went through a metamorphosis as events unfolded. The outcome in the end had developed into today's division, and had been in both TCs had Turkey's favour in terms of territorial gain / control. But I cannot help think about what would have happened if Makarios had not died so soon after the invasion and if the international talks on finding a solution continued. Based on his vast experience and knowledge of what had been happening on the island and having seen both sides of the coin, a part of me says that a solution would have been found a very long time ago. His death created a political vacuum that was exploited by politicians on both sides and had caused the subsequent extension of the Cyprus problem...

BigOz,

Thank you for a very detailed explanation as to how events unfolded once the Coup began with the Junta in '74, and I'm willing to accept it, unless others can say otherwise to contradict some of your statements, but I do have few questions regardless, but unfortunately I don't have time right now and will have to wait until Monday.

[Kikapu]

in this respect the question of kikapu and halil still remains unanswered

1.why Turkey didn't just restore "Law and Order" after kicking Sampson out ?
1.why Turkey didn't put Dr Fazil Kucuk as a president of the Cyprus by taking whole of the Cyprus ? till restore "Law and Order"

Hi Cypezokyli,

I think Halil was just "mocking" my questions to BigOz and that he himself was not really asking questions , but was being a "smart ass".

Is that correct Halil.? If I got it wrong, please accept my apologies.

[Pyrpolizer]

having made their intentions clear, they were surprised that some people resisted. i mean, when the attacking army repeatetly states its good intentions, it should expect that noone would resist. as a consequence the whole invasion turned to something else....
I hope you understand my problem.

Well said Cypez.

The Turks came here as a fully equipped Invading force ready to do ethnic cleansing and occupation. Expecting that they would be greeted with flowers is the biggest nonsense I ever heard. It never happened in human history and never will.

Besides they came before as well. We know their war planes were not exactly spreading rose water at Tylliria, but real Napalm bombs, burning hundreds of people. Same at Kofinou.

This brings us back to the Treaty of Guarantee saying the guarantors could jointly or separately "take action" to restore the state of affais or the constitutional order. What the hell is this "action"? Is it a military Invasion? Or is it a series of steps starting from Political pressure, embargoes, international isolation, and FINALLY if nothing proves successful a pre-warned and UN monitored military intervention?

We shall never accept such a thing again. If there will be a need for Guarantor powers in any solution then there should be a whole book (not just 2 lines) describing the very last detail how their "guarantee" will be exercised if necessary.