Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Zan reminds me of a serial killer that is taken to the court and says "No, your honor, I am innocent! I didn't kill 32 people as these lairs accuse me. I just killed 29"

Either 200.000, 180.000, or even 162.000, the fact is that the Turks have ethnically cleansed every GC they found on their way, a number which is by itself much larger than the whole TC population.

The same goes with the dead. Even with the lowest number which Murataga gave, 3000, add to that the number of missing who are all presumably dead and the number is almost 5000 already, not far from the 6000 figure. Even with the lowest estimates the number of GCs murdered within days is more than the number of TCs killed by GCs during the last 5 centuries. If we add the rest of the crimes of Turks against us since the time they set their foot on this island it becomes even more clear who is the aggressor and who is the victim.

Still, for the sake of reconciliation and unity we clearly say to the TCs that we should just forget the past and look into the future, for finally having a peaceful united Cyprus without racist discriminations. Unfortunately the Turks insist on recycling their own distorted version of the past in order to excuse yet more crimes against us and the occupation of our country.

[Viewpoint]

Zan reminds me of a serial killer that is taken to the court and says "No, your honor, I am innocent! I didn't kill 32 people as these lairs accuse me. I just killed 29"

Either 200.000, 180.000, or even 162.000, the fact is that the Turks have ethnically cleansed every GC they found on their way, a number which is by itself much larger than the whole TC population.

The same goes with the dead. Even with the lowest number which Murataga gave, 3000, add to that the number of missing who are all presumably dead and the number is almost 5000 already, not far from the 6000 figure. Even with the lowest estimates the number of GCs murdered within days is more than the number of TCs killed by GCs during the last 5 centuries. If we add the rest of the crimes of Turks against us since the time they set their foot on this island it becomes even more clear who is the aggressor and who is the victim.

Still, for the sake of reconciliation and unity we clearly say to the TCs that we should just forget the past and look into the future, for finally having a peaceful united Cyprus without racist discriminations. Unfortunately the Turks insist on recycling their own distorted version of the past in order to excuse yet more crimes against us and the occupation of our country.

Arent you the expert in equating the number of deaths with the amount of guilt...and the one always trying to place the blame and us.

We are only willing to forgive and forget if we can clearly see our role in a united Cyprus where there will be safeguards to guarantee we will not be pushed out or around and reduced to a minority like the Indians in the UK by the GCs.

[eleni]

Hello everyone,
I have been reading posts on this forum for a long time. I feel so sorry for you.. I am not Cypriot but I am married to one. I don't understand how anyone can hope for a Cyprus solution, when you can't even post a question or Idea without getting into an argument.. we are all first of all human beings. And whether you are TC or GC you are both Cypriot.
Eleni

[zan]

Do some research on the numbers you use and don't make a fool of yourself as Piratis does time and time again. Perhaps you can tell us the real numbers of refugees and those killed by EOKA and those by the Turks and with that, issue an apology for quoting straight from Greek propaganda pages.

Why don’t you do your own search Zan?
Here are some facts
a)Is it true or is it not that the occupied territory is 37%?
b)Is it true or is it not that the Gc population was 420,000 in 1974?
c)Is it true or is it not that the northern part was more densily populated before 1974?

So is it so difficult for you to just make an estimate and find out if the true number of GC refugees is a)162,000 b)180,000 c)200,000?

It is true that there are various numbers all over the internet. Can you guess why? Is it because there is a need for intentional lies? Or is it because those numbers just sprung out after 1974 in a situation of chaos when the GC refugees were not even listed/counted?

Who could ever count the refugees? The UN? The Red- cross? The TCs??? Turkey??? Who else other than the RoC itself? So how could ANYONE ever get an independent verified figure of how many exactly the GC refugees are unles he asks the RoC?

The same can be said about the coup, how many people died during it’s excecution, and how many were killed afterwards

Search for these facts
1)How many tanks and how many soldiers attacked?
2)How many were the defenders inside the presidential palace and the archibishopic?
3)How many days are needed to bury the dead? (notice the invasion started one week later).
4)How many people were burried those days (there is evidence just make your search the testimony in Nicosia comes from a priest called Papatsestos)

And then compare your estimates with the numbers the RoC says that died during the coup.

I am not a Journalist and I do not quote numbers. Two points against Mr Chaglar and you....The one thing that I can tell you is that the figure that both Piratis and Chaglar quoted about the dead attributed to the Turks of 6000 is wrong. He as a journalist should check and re-check his figures before going to print. Instead he quotes propaganda for his own gain.

How do you know is wrong? Have you counted them yourself?

Have the Turks counted the people they shot dead?

The truth is the ONLY one who can say how many they are, is the RoC itself. And it can say that convincingly ONLY if she publishes a catalogue with names. So far there is no such catalogue, so the 6000 dead figure is just that an unverified number.

Stop trying to blur the edges Pyro. If you want me to carry on talking to you then stick to common sense. You know very well that that is the total dead that has been quoted (not my numbers). The fact is that Samson started killing GCs and TCs long before any Turks were on the island so the number that is given as being all killed by Turks is just used to confuse. The real issue is that when the numbers are broken down it gives the whole story of what was going on in Cyprus and why Makarios made his famous speech calling for intervention and why Turkey had to step in. You guys tried all the numbers with the missing thing and came unstuck and now you expect me to take the numbers from the "RoC' once again...

Alkan Chaglar is acting irresponsibly and he should know better. Nothing to do with being a traitor but being a bad journalist. It seems that not only can we not trust politicians but journalist are fast becoming a bad source of information. What ever happened to the honest ones???

[zan]

Zan reminds me of a serial killer that is taken to the court and says "No, your honor, I am innocent! I didn't kill 32 people as these lairs accuse me. I just killed 29"

Either 200.000, 180.000, or even 162.000, the fact is that the Turks have ethnically cleansed every GC they found on their way, a number which is by itself much larger than the whole TC population.

The same goes with the dead. Even with the lowest number which Murataga gave, 3000, add to that the number of missing who are all presumably dead and the number is almost 5000 already, not far from the 6000 figure. Even with the lowest estimates the number of GCs murdered within days is more than the number of TCs killed by GCs during the last 5 centuries. If we add the rest of the crimes of Turks against us since the time they set their foot on this island it becomes even more clear who is the aggressor and who is the victim.

Still, for the sake of reconciliation and unity we clearly say to the TCs that we should just forget the past and look into the future, for finally having a peaceful united Cyprus without racist discriminations. Unfortunately the Turks insist on recycling their own distorted version of the past in order to excuse yet more crimes against us and the occupation of our country.

See my point above big boy. You have used numbers to equate it with who is guilty. When the numbers are put into perspective then you can see the reality. That reality is what you have been trying to hide and now after years of quoting numbers you tell us it does not matter how many...You have been shot down in flames mate and still you wriggle like a worm.

[growuptcs]

Zan, what are you fishing for this time with non exact deaths? Whats your point? Or are you checking off your calender with another self-opinionated victory for yourself.

[zan]

Did you read the thread or not I would say not!!!

[Pyrpolizer]

Do some research on the numbers you use and don't make a fool of yourself as Piratis does time and time again. Perhaps you can tell us the real numbers of refugees and those killed by EOKA and those by the Turks and with that, issue an apology for quoting straight from Greek propaganda pages.

Why don’t you do your own search Zan?
Here are some facts
a)Is it true or is it not that the occupied territory is 37%?
b)Is it true or is it not that the Gc population was 420,000 in 1974?
c)Is it true or is it not that the northern part was more densily populated before 1974?

So is it so difficult for you to just make an estimate and find out if the true number of GC refugees is a)162,000 b)180,000 c)200,000?

It is true that there are various numbers all over the internet. Can you guess why? Is it because there is a need for intentional lies? Or is it because those numbers just sprung out after 1974 in a situation of chaos when the GC refugees were not even listed/counted?

Who could ever count the refugees? The UN? The Red- cross? The TCs??? Turkey??? Who else other than the RoC itself? So how could ANYONE ever get an independent verified figure of how many exactly the GC refugees are unles he asks the RoC?

The same can be said about the coup, how many people died during it’s excecution, and how many were killed afterwards

Search for these facts
1)How many tanks and how many soldiers attacked?
2)How many were the defenders inside the presidential palace and the archibishopic?
3)How many days are needed to bury the dead? (notice the invasion started one week later).
4)How many people were burried those days (there is evidence just make your search the testimony in Nicosia comes from a priest called Papatsestos)

And then compare your estimates with the numbers the RoC says that died during the coup.

I am not a Journalist and I do not quote numbers. Two points against Mr Chaglar and you....The one thing that I can tell you is that the figure that both Piratis and Chaglar quoted about the dead attributed to the Turks of 6000 is wrong. He as a journalist should check and re-check his figures before going to print. Instead he quotes propaganda for his own gain.

How do you know is wrong? Have you counted them yourself?

Have the Turks counted the people they shot dead?

The truth is the ONLY one who can say how many they are, is the RoC itself. And it can say that convincingly ONLY if she publishes a catalogue with names. So far there is no such catalogue, so the 6000 dead figure is just that an unverified number.

Stop trying to blur the edges Pyro. If you want me to carry on talking to you then stick to common sense.You know very well that that is the total dead that has been quoted (not my numbers). The fact is that Samson started killing GCs and TCs long before any Turks were on the island so the number that is given as being all killed by Turks is just used to confuse. The real issue is that when the numbers are broken down it gives the whole story of what was going on in Cyprus and why Makarios made his famous speech calling for intervention and why Turkey had to step in. You guys tried all the numbers with the missing thing and came unstuck and now you expect me to take the numbers from the "RoC' once again...

Alkan Chaglar is acting irresponsibly and he should know better. Nothing to do with being a traitor but being a bad journalist. It seems that not only can we not trust politicians but journalist are fast becoming a bad source of information. What ever happened to the honest ones???

Actually you are the only person in this forum that I regret talking with most of the times, precicely because you lack common sense.

I am personally trying to switch from arguing to presenting information in this forum. Goooooone are the days you had something interesting to say or present some information yourself . And I am not talking about your poetry abilities I am talking about other things one could read and remember for a long time. Remember the "GCs like to talk, the TCs like to watch, the Chinese kitchens, the Nigerians etc"? Well that imo WAS GOOD and I mean it.

[Piratis]

Zan Zan Zan!!

If it was up to me the past including the numbers, would not matter. The reason is that I don't want to punish you, but on the contrary what I want is reconciliation that will bring in Cyprus peace, unity and democracy, with safeguards for all Cypriots, without one gaining anything on the loss of another, and without racist discriminations.

Unfortunately you don't seem to want reconciliation. You want hate between the two sides because in this way you can excuse the need for division and to gain land on our loss, your dream of decades.

All I am telling to you is that if you want to play the blame game, then you need to realize that we will not just shut our mouth and allow you to put all the blame on us, while in fact you share more of the blame for most parts of our history (including today).

For example I will not let you pass this lie: "The fact is that Samson started killing GCs and TCs long before any Turks were on the island "

Samson and the coupists were killing GCs of the resistance, but not TCs. As I said to you several times, the TCs that were killed in 1974 were killed after the Turkish invasion had started (and as a reaction to it).

About the numbers you sound like the serial killer who declares his innocence because he killed 29 and not 32 people.
So ok, the 6000 for dead GCs, and 200.000 ethnicalle cleansed might not be accurate. However even with the most conservative way, the dead could not be less than 4700 and the ones ethnically cleansed not less than 162.000-180.000. At the same time though, we will have to reduce the numbers of casualties claimed by TCs, for similar reasons.

As I told you earlier, you have ethnically cleansed a number of GCs which is more than the whole TC population, and within days you killed 1000s of GCs, WAY more than any harm the GCs have ever done to you during our centuries of coexistence. (on the other hand, this was not the first time the Turks were butchering GCs by the 1000s)

So stop trying to blame the GCs exclusively for what happened in the past. Yes we harmed you, and yes you harmed us. The fact is that today the past can not be used as excuse to harm people, most of whom were not even born back then. So lets stop the blame games and the excuses, and allow peace, legality and democracy to return to our island. That of course can include safeguards for you and safeguards for us, as long as these safeguards are not used as an excuse to violate the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people as a whole.

[Chimera]

It seems to me in my small mind...that Zan is being treated as a sacrificial lamb,

or maybe a scapegoat,

or maybe a decoy. This one I think.

He has done an excellent job of making the more learned speakers (piratis etc) go around in a "Catch 22" situation. This is preventing progress.

I'd like some analysis of the article for my bedtime reading and Zan will persist in useless number stumblings.

For the record, numbers are important, but for a lively debate, lets have some points to chew on.

Or, you can resort to those funny one-liners.