Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Regardless of the stupid threats of Turkey, where are these oil fields? Are they in International waters or Cyprus territorial waters. Is there a continental shelf of some sorts involved? Anyone with quick answers?

I'd start with UN Law of the Sea and related conventions. It is a mistake to think that just because a sea area is contiguous with a land area that it automatically confers exclusive rights to that state. Most often contiguity does imply jurisdiction, but not always.

Further there are varying rights that accompany jurisdictional claims. Thus, for example, territorial surface waters, say 12 miles, does not automatically entail ownership rights of 12 miles, which are in turn different from exploration rights which may be more or less than 12 miles, or exploitation or other economic rights which may be more or less than 12 miles.

Chimera wrote:
Ohh is Zan suffering from an identity crises?

If we do not acknowledge you then you do not exist, right.

Maybe you are a figment of your own imagination, again living in a twilight zone, in another dimension.

As Descartes said, "I think, therefore I exist".

But the Turks do not think, therefore, by inference, they do not exist!

Therefore Descartes was an ASS! That was ancient Greek Logic anyway. It doesnt work.

Descartes, who was certainly no ass, actually wrote 'Cogito, ergo sum' or 'I think therefore I am' (which does not mean the same as I think therefore I exist). His was shorthand way of expressing the centrally of consciousness (and of consciousness to identity). For philosophical realism, some roots of which are certainly ancient greek in origin (eg Epicurus) but by no means were all ancient greeks realists (most obviously Plato) rocks or trees or cars exist independent of consciousness of them. Cartesian philosophy (i.e, from Descartes) posits a distinction between, for example, mind (consciousness) and body, which can lead to the view that consciousness of what exists must be 'prior' to existence. Back to 'Cogito, ergo sum', Descartes seems to be saying that it is only consciousness (seemingly a quality only possessed by human beings) which allows for things to be brought into being (existence). For anyone interested in these questions, Descartes (17th century) put a particular twist on perennial questions of epistemology (how we know what we know) and ontology (what kinds of things exist) which in all fields of science remain sharply debated. OK, this has little to do with the oil question !!!

[zan]

Welcome back Copperline.



Am I correct in thinking that, again in layman terms, this is the old chicken and egg question.

[CopperLine]

Zan,
You are right in thinking it is most often thought of as a chicken-egg type problem. People mostly can't decide which comes first consciousness or being and whether the latter is dependent on the former or the other way around. Consequently there is a tendency to fall into an inifinite loop.

However very broadly speaking there are two traditions in philosophy, namely idealism and realism. Idealism holds that it is ideas which inform what exists and since ideas are a product of human consciousness it necessarily means that consciousness is prior to and producing of 'things'. In contrast realism holds that what exists is independent of consciousness of its existence.

I've given a very crude (and in some senses misleading) description of these traditions and there is clearly masses to be said about this (and not on a thread about oil !). What I would argue is that these apparently 'abstract' and 'philosophical' questions are actually not only ever present in our daily conversations (including this forum) but are crucial to the way that we seek to undertsand the world even though we are unware most of the time of our 'layman's philosophy'. It is my strongly held conviction that every person is a philosopher whether they like it or not, whether they accept that label or not. To be a human being, to coin a phrase, is to be a philosopher.

[zan]

Zan,
You are right in thinking it is most often thought of as a chicken-egg type problem. People mostly can't decide which comes first consciousness or being and whether the latter is dependent on the former or the other way around. Consequently there is a tendency to fall into an inifinite loop.

However very broadly speaking there are two traditions in philosophy, namely idealism and realism. Idealism holds that it is ideas which inform what exists and since ideas are a product of human consciousness it necessarily means that consciousness is prior to and producing of 'things'. In contrast realism holds that what exists is independent of consciousness of its existence.

I've given a very crude (and in some senses misleading) description of these traditions and there is clearly masses to be said about this (and not on a thread about oil !). What I would argue is that these apparently 'abstract' and 'philosophical' questions are actually not only ever present in our daily conversations (including this forum) but are crucial to the way that we seek to undertsand the world even though we are unware most of the time of our 'layman's philosophy'. It is my strongly held conviction that every person is a philosopher whether they like it or not, whether they accept that label or not. To be a human being, to coin a phrase, is to be a philosopher.

I think the oil debate is dead so I see no reason why we can't talk about something else....After all that seems to be the way all threads go anyway.

I know very little about this subject but am always facinated by it.

By what you said above then I must be a Realist because Idealism must need a god for it to exist, as it were.

[erolz]

(eg Epicurus)

Epicurus rocks !

[denizaksulu]

Regardless of the stupid threats of Turkey, where are these oil fields? Are they in International waters or Cyprus territorial waters. Is there a continental shelf of some sorts involved? Anyone with quick answers?

I'd start with UN Law of the Sea and related conventions. It is a mistake to think that just because a sea area is contiguous with a land area that it automatically confers exclusive rights to that state. Most often contiguity does imply jurisdiction, but not always.

Further there are varying rights that accompany jurisdictional claims. Thus, for example, territorial surface waters, say 12 miles, does not automatically entail ownership rights of 12 miles, which are in turn different from exploration rights which may be more or less than 12 miles, or exploitation or other economic rights which may be more or less than 12 miles.

Chimera wrote:
Ohh is Zan suffering from an identity crises?

If we do not acknowledge you then you do not exist, right.

Maybe you are a figment of your own imagination, again living in a twilight zone, in another dimension.

As Descartes said, "I think, therefore I exist".

But the Turks do not think, therefore, by inference, they do not exist!

Therefore Descartes was an ASS! That was ancient Greek Logic anyway. It doesnt work.

Descartes, who was certainly no ass, actually wrote 'Cogito, ergo sum' or 'I think therefore I am' (which does not mean the same as I think therefore I exist). His was shorthand way of expressing the centrally of consciousness (and of consciousness to identity). For philosophical realism, some roots of which are certainly ancient greek in origin (eg Epicurus) but by no means were all ancient greeks realists (most obviously Plato) rocks or trees or cars exist independent of consciousness of them. Cartesian philosophy (i.e, from Descartes) posits a distinction between, for example, mind (consciousness) and body, which can lead to the view that consciousness of what exists must be 'prior' to existence. Back to 'Cogito, ergo sum', Descartes seems to be saying that it is only consciousness (seemingly a quality only possessed by human beings) which allows for things to be brought into being (existence). For anyone interested in these questions, Descartes (17th century) put a particular twist on perennial questions of epistemology (how we know what we know) and ontology (what kinds of things exist) which in all fields of science remain sharply debated. OK, this has little to do with the oil question !!!

Thanks Copperline. My fault that I asked for a quick answer. The whole mess explained (attempted) with two sentences. I will have do do my own research on this. Rather complicated. That reminds me, I always hated my Logic teacher. Thanks for the lecture
Regards
DA

[oranos64]

Bananiot
I destroyed cyprus ..the likes of me ...man ...you all blow ... it is the likes of me that have unified most of the cypriot community in LONDON..it is the likes of me that has turkish cypriot mates ...and calls for equality ..but ill be dammed if i was to sit back and allow TURKS etc to have a voice over the future of my families land ...

never will i allow 74 to be repeated and never will i allow the sacrifaces of my breahten to go in vain ....GREEK OR CYPRIOT ...

Bananiot i am the multitude ....fear the future ...when my voice is echoed in the thousands ...my pack grows in numbers and my fingers are in many domains ....

democracy and justice is coming

[Pyrpolizer]

Now tell me are you satisfied or are you NOT satisfied for the fact that most propably there is no oil. Personally I am. The situation might have lead to a new war...

Pyro, what size of diapers are you wearing to send you a packet or two?

Any size will do Kifeas as long as they are trademarked "Lapithos, Kyrenia, now Pafos " like the ones you are wearing day in day out.

[Kifeas]

Now tell me are you satisfied or are you NOT satisfied for the fact that most propably there is no oil. Personally I am. The situation might have lead to a new war...

Pyro, what size of diapers are you wearing to send you a packet or two?

Any size will do Kifeas as long as they are trademarked "Lapithos, Kyrenia, now Pafos " like the ones you are wearing day in day out.

Pyro, I can assure you I neither wear diapers, nor do I accept to live because others allow me, more so Turkey! Only a special case of a psycho (and not only) would have uttered the above lines of yours! Perhaps you should consider committing suicide instead, rather than living such a miserable phobic life like the one you do! I can assure you it will be far more honourable than accepting to live like a reptile!

[BirKibrisli]

Bananiot
I destroyed cyprus ..the likes of me ...man ...you all blow ... it is the likes of me that have unified most of the cypriot community in LONDON..it is the likes of me that has turkish cypriot mates ...and calls for equality ..but ill be dammed if i was to sit back and allow TURKS etc to have a voice over the future of my families land ...

never will i allow 74 to be repeated and never will i allow the sacrifaces of my breahten to go in vain ....GREEK OR CYPRIOT ...

Bananiot i am the multitude ....fear the future ...when my voice is echoed in the thousands ...my pack grows in numbers and my fingers are in many domains ....

democracy and justice is coming

Oranos...Bananiot is right...there are very many multitudes of a different kind who say "never will we allow 1963 to 74 be repeated....and never will i allow the sacrifices of my breathen to go in vain....TURKISH OR CYPRIOT TURKISH..."...You see the problem????? Will you take us back to the rule of the jungle???? Survival of the fittest????Why don't you and your kind and the other kind who are just like you take your problems and solve them elsewhere??? Not in our homeland...Please...?