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The church has too much money!

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Postby dms007 » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:54 pm

Bill wrote:Yes the greek orthodox church is rich -- very rich -- but if they are so rich why do they take the last few cents from many old ladies pockets .

I was sat outside a village church last saturday and overheard a lady who had brought her sick granddaughter to the side entrance of the church to be blessed -- the priest made a quick blessing and relieved the lady of five pounds -- :shock:

Hmm not a bad business better than working for a living and you get a bmw as a works car too :roll: .

Bill



There is a parable about this woman who comes to the pray and she drops the only few coins she has into the box and Jesus says she will be blessed for that.

So you should think why, maybe the priest took the only money from the old woman so that she too would be abundantly blessed.
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Postby devil » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:58 pm

Bill wrote:I was sat outside a village church last saturday and overheard a lady who had brought her sick granddaughter to the side entrance of the church to be blessed -- the priest made a quick blessing and relieved the lady of five pounds -- :shock:

Hmm not a bad business better than working for a living and you get a bmw as a works car too :roll: .



1. The priest should have the means to give the mother the money for proper medical treatment, as well as spiritual help. Unfortunately village priests are often as poor as the elderly widows and have no easy way of asking up the hierarchy for financial help for the stricken. The church receives more easily than it gives.

2. The average village priest does not have a works car, not even a clapped out Corolla, let alone a BMW. That is reserved for the upper hierarchy, who do the least spiritual work.
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Postby twinkle » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:00 pm

If you believe in God, you don't have to go to church. You can practice at home. You do not need an intermediary to talk to God. The priests and bishops are there because years ago the average person couldn't read and so they needed the church to deliver God's message and read from the Bible. There is no justification in having 1,000's of churches of which the money could have been diverted towards better housing, schools and medical care. Jesus threw the money lenders out of the church. Money and religion are a bad combination. The Catholic church has it's own bank!!!!!!!!!!.. A prime example of corruption. Organised crime at its best! The Pope is the Don!


Here endeth the lesson.....
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Postby Bill » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:34 pm

Well said Twinkle -- and exactly my thoughts on the subject too

Bill
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Postby Eliko » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:39 pm

Bill wrote:Yes the greek orthodox church is rich -- very rich -- but if they are so rich why do they take the last few cents from many old ladies pockets .

I was sat outside a village church last saturday and overheard a lady who had brought her sick granddaughter to the side entrance of the church to be blessed -- the priest made a quick blessing and relieved the lady of five pounds -- :shock:

Hmm not a bad business better than working for a living and you get a bmw as a works car too :roll: .

Bill


I think the second coming of Christ would be a good idea right now, I'm sure he would have a 'field day' sorting the bleeders out !!. :wink:
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Postby LENA » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:49 pm

twinkle wrote:If you believe in God, you don't have to go to church.


True by the way what do you think about saying your sins to the priest...do you need priest for that as well? Get bless from them? Going to the church is not to find the God by the way...God is everywhere. But Church is his house as we say...but not literally is a place that people go to pray ...not that they can not pray elsewhere but there i guess you feel different...you go to listen the words of the God .... i love to go to a female monastery near where i live is really lovely and make me feel peaceful.
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Postby twinkle » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:07 am

LENA wrote:
twinkle wrote:If you believe in God, you don't have to go to church.


True by the way what do you think about saying your sins to the priest...do you need priest for that as well? Get bless from them? Going to the church is not to find the God by the way...God is everywhere. But Church is his house as we say...but not literally is a place that people go to pray ...not that they can not pray elsewhere but there i guess you feel different...you go to listen the words of the God .... i love to go to a female monastery near where i live is really lovely and make me feel peaceful.


A priest doesn't forgive your sins, God does. Ask God directly. Priests are just middle men, estate agents, insurance brokers etc.

As for a Church being God's house I disagree. God is everywhere so you don't need to go to a specific place to talk to him. He would be shocked and angry if He knew how much money was being pumped into His "houses". It's appalling! I do agree though that they can be a peaceful place to retreat and reflect but you should not feel as though they are the only place you can go to.
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Postby Eliko » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:05 am

twinkle wrote:If you believe in God,
A priest doesn't forgive your sins, God does. Ask God directly. Priests are just middle men, estate agents, insurance brokers etc.

As for a Church being God's house I disagree. God is everywhere so you don't need to go to a specific place to talk to him. He would be shocked and angry if He knew how much money was being pumped into His "houses". It's appalling! I do agree though that they can be a peaceful place to retreat and reflect but you should not feel as though they are the only place you can go to.



Whenever we find ourselves in difficult/troublesome situations, we (a great number of us), call on the Almighty for assistance and guidance.

THAT is the time when we are truly 'In Church' and in touch with the Master, the building itself is merely a symbol of power and is probably the most unlikely place to find the spirit of the Lord since it has become representative of much that Jesus Christ himself despised.

I think the Lord knows well enough how much money is being pumped into his "houses" and probably IS shocked and angry at the behaviour of humanity in general, perhaps he has turned his back upon us all, it surely appears to be so these troubled times.

In my humble opinion. :roll:
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Postby Chimera » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:41 am

QUOTE Eliko:
"I think the Lord knows well enough how much money is being pumped into his "houses" and probably IS shocked and angry at the behaviour of humanity in general, perhaps he has turned his back upon us all, it surely appears to be so these troubled times. "

What evidence is there that God has done anything but turn "his back"? He doesn't intervene to solve our problems, because he does not exist.

....and it's not that he is letting us solve problems for ourselves, as again that would preclude any reason for needing him to exist in the first place.

Once we realise we have responsibility for our actions, then we can be free to get on with solving our problems and not waiting for Divine Intervention to get us out of a sticky mess.
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Postby devil » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:22 pm

There is a doctrine called the Priesthood of all Believers. Although this is strongest in some of the major Protestant sects, it is also accepted in both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Briefly, it states that a priest is not necessary as an intermediary between the faithful and God, but can communicate directly because of the Sacrifice of Jesus. This is why many prayers end, "...through Jesus Christ our Lord" or similar. Jesus himself recommended in Matthew ch 6 the short, simple prayer, said privately "in a closet". So priests are not there to be the "estate agent" of prayer.

Who can celebrate the Sacraments? The common case of lay celebration is the baptism of a new-born baby dying before a priest can be called: any believer has the right to perform this act. Whether it be called Mass, Holy Eucharist, Holy Communion or whatever, and whether the individual's belief is transsubstantiation, consubstantiation or a symbolic commemoration of the Last Supper, all the established Churches accept that any believer may celebrate it in cases where an ordained priest or minister is not able to do so. I think some churches impose a minimum number of persons present, others don't. So, if the case arises, any Tom, Dick or Harry can legally consecrate the bread and wine. So an ordained priest is not essential to celebrate a Sacrament.

Anyone can pronounce the Doxology, which is a blessing, therefore any believer can bless a person or object, by extension. Even saying goodbye (God be with ye) is a blessing, so this is a common, everyday, lay blessing.

Anyone can interpret and teach others Christian doctrine, read from the Bible and debate the meaning (within the dogma of the particular branch of the Church to which he belongs. A priest may give guidance, but so can a lay person.

Anyone can help and comfort their neighbours, so pastoral work is not a monopoly of the ordained priest, either.

The Priesthood of all Believers is therefore a clear indication that ordination is not an essential part of the Christian faith. Peter himself wrote to the early Christian Church, "But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.", implying that all (you) are priests. Indeed, some formal churches don't have any form of ordained ministers or priests (e.g., the Society of Friends or Quakers, where every believer is equal in "rank").

AFAIK, the formal ordination of priests probably started only after the Council of Nicea, certainly not before the 4th century. Before that, the early church had three classes of leaders who were elected by the congregation: the episkopos, the presbyteros and the diakonos. The episkopos (literally, the bishop) was the part-time spiritual guide, rather like the Jewish rabbi. The presbyteros or elder(s) was(were) the leaders of the church services and also advised the bishop if his doctrine strayed. The deacons looked after the material welfare of the church, receiving and dishing out money. The notion of Peter being the first Pope and the continuum of the Papacy is strictly a 5th century notion.

As for the Church's riches (Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant), as someone pointed out, Jesus said, "My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves" and chased the moneychangers and those who became rich with the blemished lamb scam. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." The formal Churches are composed of rich men who defy the teachings of Jesus with each breath.

This is why I no longer belong to a formal church, despite having been "ordained" into the diaconate.

Reading the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles with an open mind will show that the early church was VERY different from any church as we know it today. Reading the Gospels will show that the church today is not what Jesus prescribed. Unfortunately.
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