Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The whole point of a truth and reconcialiation commission - very diffilcut to achieve, but has still been acheived - is to bring out the truth of what has happened to people, what they have experienced. It is not to claim to establish 'the truth' as if only one truth were possible. It therefore accepts that there are many different histories, many different experiences, many different 'sides'. It operates on the principle of 'this is my story, this is my experience, this is what happened to me'. It does not proceed on the basis that you are lying, that your experience doesn't count, that your story is propaganda, that what happened to you and yours is irrelevant.

Piratis says

Are you ready to accept the truth?

As if the truth were a neat little package held by someone, just waiting for the taking. So long as your repeatedly throw such phrases around 'accept the truth - like some religiious mystic, as if we were waiting for a messiah, then nothing but ill will come of it.

There is only one truth since the historical facts can not have multiple versions. What can differ is the interpretation of events and your opinion about them.
An example: in 1974 no TC was harmed until after the turkish invasion had started. This historical fact proves as false the big lie of the Turkish propaganda, that supposedly Turkey invaded Cyprus to save the TCs who were being killed. Are you ready to accept this truth, even though it doesn't serve your propaganda?
Beyond the facts, you can have your own opinion about why things happened the way they did, or what would have happened if .... etc etc. But the facts and the truth remains.

If the 'truth and reconciliation commission' was just about everybody coming out and saying his own suffering and sticking to any version of history suits him, then where is the truth and where is the reconciliation in this? It is just like what we are having in here! Welcome to the "truth and reconciliation commission"

[CopperLine]

Piratis wrote,

CopperLine you are taking sides and I think it would be better if you accept that you are a TC or Turk (or tell us what you are).

Nobody will have any prejudice against you because of your origin.

..."it would be better" for whom ? Why would it be better ? Your answer is "Nobody will have any prejudice against you because of your origin", in which case it makes no difference what my 'origin' is. Thank you. This has become an obssession of some that I shall put end to, by repeating, my identity is of no significance to my arguments. I won't be saying anything further about this.

Pantheman, you wrote,

Could you answer the point about which international law turkey conforms to?

I wrote a lot about this on other pages, and I explained where I thought Turkey could/had argued that its actions were lawful and where they weren't. Make an effort to read them. If you did so then you would realise waht rubbish it is to say that "you haven't at any point made any criticism of them."

I read you posts, but sadly each time i do, ...

Let me complete that sentence for you: "....I manage to fundamentally misinterpret what you've said. When you say 'black' I read 'white'."

Now answer my question, what nationality are you?

Your answer (honest answer) would be most welcome.

To this instruction you welcome my honest answer ? Are you sure ?

[CopperLine]

Piratis,

If the 'truth and reconciliation commission' was just about everybody coming out and saying his own suffering and sticking to any version of history suits him, then where is the truth and where is the reconciliation in this?

I appreciate your scepticism; I'm also a little sceptical and is also true to say that these commissions in other countries have not been without major problems. Having said that to a very great degree the T&R Commission i South Africa was successful and it performed a major task in trying to 'heal' generations of suspicion and hatred as well as crime and abuse. By all means we should think of other avenues to approach these problems, but T&R commissions are one impoertant and proven way of making progress.

[Get Real!]

Almost clever pantheman. May be you are trying too hard.

Piratis wrote

They concentrate only in a small part of the past ,63-74, and even in that part the "truth" for them is just their own suffering. In that conflict both sides had an about equal share of blame. I and most other GCs in here repeatedly condemned the actions of EOKA B and the murder of innocent TCs.

The above is a joke and gross distortion of historical truth. EOKA B was not around till about 1972 or there abouts. The murders of Turkish Cypriots were committed by government backed paramilitarists of the likes of Papadopoulos, Yiorgadjis, Sampson and Lissarides. Makarios financed them and even offered his summer restp lace in Troodos for military exercises of the "organisation" members.

You are wrong here Bananiot. Many of you, and Turkish Cypriots included, are quick to blame Makarios (and subsequently TP his fervent follower) about EOKA B, and yet not a single one of you mention the real orchestrator George Grivas.

In retrospect Grivas was VERY lucky to have died in the "nick of time" (Jan 74) because nobody seems to blame him for anything these days and it's almost as if he never existed even! Fascinating stuff!

Makarios had a HUGE problem with trouble-making Grivas who was very disgruntled by the 1960 agreements which cemented the end of Enosis. Makarios could NOT contain Grivas due to the huge local and junta support he enjoyed but SWIFTLY showed his opposition to EOKA B by OUTLAWING and persecuting this organization IMMEDIATELY after Grivas' death albeit too late for the Turkish invasion.

[Bananiot]

No Get Real, I am not wrong. Grivas only turned against Makarios in 1967 following the Kophinou disaster which made Μakarios turn from the desirable (ευκταίο) to the feasible (εφικτό). Until then Makarios was fully behind the paramilitarists, funding them and encouraging them. The aim was not only to combat TMT but to further the aim of enosis (desirable).

[Get Real!]

No Get Real, I am not wrong. Grivas only turned against Makarios in 1967 following the Kophinou disaster which made Μakarios turn from the desirable (ευκταίο) to the feasible (εφικτό). Until then Makarios was fully behind the paramilitarists, funding them and encouraging them. The aim was not only to combat TMT but to further the aim of enosis (desirable).

Then how can you claim earlier that Makarios funded/supported EOKA B activities given that this organization was formed upon Grivas’ last return to Cyprus in August 1971?

He once more returned to Cyprus from Greece secretly in August 1971 to form and lead underground organisation EOKA B, again with the rallying cry of Enosis. He secretly met with Makarios but they did not reach an agreement to co-operate. Grivas started plotting to overthrow Makarios with the support of the US-backed Junta of the Colonels which was ruling Greece at the time.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Cyprus/Bios/GeorgeGrivas.html

[Bananiot]

I did not say that Makarios funded EOKA B. I said he funded the "organisation". Of yes Get Real. There was another organisation prior to EOKA B. Yiorgadjis was its leader and Papadopouols the vice leader. The part you quoted confirms what I wrote.

[pantheman]

Pantheman wrote :

Now answer my question, what nationality are you?

Your answer (honest answer) would be most welcome.

copperline wrote :

To this instruction you welcome my honest answer ? Are you sure ? Well hand on heart, my honest if reluctant, real real honest to god answer to that question alone is this, 'Fuck off'.

Well, well, touchy are we, you have just confirmed my suspicions you twat. Wolf dressed in sheeps clothing. I have read you posts. Quanitity massive, quality and content, bollucks.

You have just shown your true colours, i will be happy to ignore your bullshit from now on
You come here, confess you haven't read many of the postings, pretend to be a nuetral person, when in fact really you are not.

Come, come my boy if you pull the other one it has bells.

[CopperLine]

Pantheman,
I unreservedly apologise for telling you to fuck off. I'm afraid it was just a somewhat underhand ploy to demonstrate the futility of some of the exchanges and positions adopted by too many.

What was your reaction ? After being abused you dig deeper into your own position, turn up the frequency of abuse - twat, bollocks, bullshit, dickhead (what would a shrink make of this consistent imagery) - reconfirm your own prejudice ('confirmed my suspicions'), ignore the efforts at discussion ('happy to ignore your bullshit') and reciprocate the refusal to listen ('take your own advice and you Fuck off')

So in one exchange is contained the perpetual cycle of 'addressing' the Cyprus problem.

As I said, my apologies for the cheap trick.

[pantheman]

Pantheman,
I unreservedly apologise for telling you to fuck off. I'm afraid it was just a somewhat underhand ploy to demonstrate the futility of some of the exchanges and positions adopted by too many.

What was your reaction ? After being abused you dig deeper into your own position, turn up the frequency of abuse - twat, bollocks, bullshit, dickhead (what would a shrink make of this consistent imagery) - reconfirm your own prejudice ('confirmed my suspicions'), ignore the efforts at discussion ('happy to ignore your bullshit') and reciprocate the refusal to listen ('take your own advice and you Fuck off')

So in one exchange is contained the perpetual cycle of 'addressing' the Cyprus problem.

As I said, my apologies for the cheap trick.

Copperline,

it doesn't matter if it was a cheap psychoanalysis trick and you certainly don't need to apologise to me, i gave as good as i got. Isn't that what happens in every thing in life ?

I speak from the heart as someone who has lost something, you maybe speaking as a bystander and not appreciate the inside tensions that is prevailant.

hence the need to know from where you are calling. You certainly don't sound like someone who has lost, your posts show this, but you must understand what feelings both the TCs and GCs have when they write.

The abuse that gets chucked about is just fustration on the whole sorry affair and i would suspect that at some point these abusive posters would share a beer or two if they were ever to meet up.

So, i think i have made my point. Just look at the thread title and tell me where you fit in ? If you are not connected to cyprus, then you cannot have those dreams like we do. I rest my case.