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Lack of Respect for Makarios III

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:51 am

Piratis wrote:Zan, the numbers show the magnitude of the the Turkish atrocities. Is the magnitude less if the number is not 200.000 but it is 180.000 or 162.000? The fact is that all Greek Cypriots, the majority of the population, had been ethnically cleansed from the occupied part of Cyprus.


What YOUR numbers have shown is that you have been lying and that goes for dates and who started what and where. That is the problem you are having and are trying to get out of the shit you are in all night. You are a propagandist and that is all there is to it. You have been found out big time mate. Give it a rest.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:00 am

Who was lying it is you when you said that two Turkish villages were attacked in 1974 before the turkish invasion, and then you couldn't even name them.

The numbers I give are approximate in order to give the magnitude of the atrocities of the Turkish invasion. It could be a bit more or a bit less than that, but not by much, and therefore it doesn't change anything.

If you can prove to me that the number was less than 200.000 then bring on your sources and lets see. I have no problem to accept that the number was 180.000 or 162.000. Do you have a problem to accept that even with the lowest estimates the amount of suffering you have caused to us is multiples times more than your own?

And going back to your previous lies, do you still have a problem to accept that in 1974 it is the Turks (again) that started the killings between Turks and Cypriots?
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Postby zan » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:15 am

The Move Toward Violence, 1953-55

The failure of the British to offer any hope of a change in Cyprus=s colonial status was met by Greek Cypriots with a growing surge toward militancy, particularly (and perhaps exclusively) by those insisting in enosis. Greek scholar Ioannis Stefanidis explains this in Isle of Discord.

The emergence of a moderate, 'constitutional' faction in Cypriot politics was never a serious possibility. This was not due to lack of potential leaders. Rather, it seems that [John] Clerides, the former mayor of Nicosia, and Hryssafinis, a prominent lawyer and former member of the Executive Council, did try to do some groundwork for the return of the island to constitutional life. They were joined by purged members of AKEL, such as Ioannou, its former Secretary- General and newspaper publisher, and, on 30 March 1953, they even managed to hold a small pro-constitution meeting at Limassol. Their efforts failed as a result of, firstly, the British failure to produce a credible and workable proposal for constitutional advance, and, secondly, the relentless hostility of the Ethnarchy. Like his predecessors, Makarios feared that the introduction of a constitutional regime, unless coupled with a clear and short timetable for a plebiscite, would lead to the formation of political parties, which 'would tend to neglect [the] national struggle' in their pursuit of parochial political goals. The Archbishop used every opportunity, be it the plebiscite anniversary or his periodic sermons at Faneromeni, to warn against any constitutional 'deviation' from nationalist orthodoxy. Under the circumstances, those who dared defy such warn- ings and threats never managed to attract enough popular support.

A matter of urgency

By 1953, the Ethnarchy leaders had enough reasons for concern about the prospects of their campaign. Four General Assembly sessions had passed since the 1950 plebiscite without the Cyprus question being formally raised. There was an acute feeling among the Cypriots of being made an exception at a time when, as Makarios put it to Papagos, they failed 'to achieve whatever the semi-civilised peoples of today are achieving by their perseverance'. There were also signs, according to diplomatic sources at least, that Cypriot opinion had begun to show 'a surprising lack of sincere interest' in Enosis, Wagner, the US Consul, continued to speak of a, however latent, constitutionalist current of opinion. In October 1953, he ' appeared to believe that a timely British offer might induce a sufficient number of influential Cypriots to accept it 'out of political desperation or in self-interest'." Georgios Seferiadis, Greek Ambassador in Beirut, confirms that this prospect deeply concerned the Archbishop. After meeting with Makarios on 7 November, he noted in his diary that 'the Ethnarchy, despite its best efforts, cannot keep people's feeling on its side. The fear was that the prolongation of the present regime might prejudice the outcome of a plebiscite, even if it was held after two or three years.' In view of all this, Seferiadis concluded, 'something had to be done soon'.

Makarios' first reaction was to try to galvanise the faithful with ever more combative rhetoric. Preaching at Faneromeni on 28 June 1953, he braced his flock for sacrifices, arguing that Britain never set any people free unless forced to do so by violent means. He also sent a clear warning to the Greek government, when he exclaimed that the Cypriots would 'stretch out both our right and our left hands to accept help from the East as well as the West' in pursuing their cause. After addressing his petition to the UN Secretary-General, on 10 August 1953, Makarios authorised his envoy to New York, Savvas Loizidis, to solicit the support of members of the African-Asiatic group. Loizidis was able to report that the Thai representative was being sympathetic. Although this did not amount to much, the Archbishop, in his subsequent appeal to Papagos for sponsorship, once more referred to resorting 'to every means' and 'the affections of foreigners' Perhaps, Makarios did not as yet know that Papagos' mind was evolving towards the UN option. By early 1954, the initiative in the pursuit of Enosis had passed from Nicosia to Athens. Kyrou told the US Ambassador in March 1954 that Makarios' visit and activities in the Greek capital were 'of quite secondary importance', since the government had already decided to resort to the UN. From then on, Makarios concentrated on sustaining that decision against any slackening or sign of compromise. His repudiation of Stefanopoulos' acceptance of a constitution cum eventual self-determination in late April, and Papagos' subsequent reaffirmation of the UN course proved that his reactions could not be ignored by Athens. That particular intervention becomes more significant with hindsight, as it came exactly when the British Foreign Office was close to endorsing a formula similar to that envisaged by Stefanopoulos. Of course, the Archbishop could have no idea about deliberations behind Whitehall walls. Once again, the reasons of his reaction were mainly internalCofficial references to a compromise tended to 'dismay and confuse' the Ethnarchy camp and exposed it to AKEL polemics.

Similar considerations probably led Makarios to oppose an effort by Tom Driberg, a Labour MP, to convene an all-party political debate in Nicosia, in early September 1954. Driberg persuaded Mayor Dervis to invite some 250 prominent Greek Cypriots of every political persuasion as well as Turkish Cypriots to attend the meeting. The agenda included all aspects of the island's political problem, from the British constitutional offer to self-determination. The Arch- bishop found himself in an awkward position from which he was extricated thanks to the short-sightedness of the colonial authorities. The insistence of the police to be present and able to dissolve the gathering, if it turned 'seditious', led Dervis to have it cancelled. Driberg left Cyprus in frustration and anger, comparing the colonial regime to a 'fascist and police State'.

The use of force

The price Makarios would ultimately have to pay for his ascendancy was his sliding into the hard line advocated by his fair weather companions in the struggle for Enosis. From 1951 onwards, resort to forceful methods was advocated by irredentists such as Kyprianos of Kyrenia and the quasi-professional Enosist circle in Athens. Prominent among the latter were Georgios Stratos, a former Minister for War, Law Professor Dimitrios Vezanis, a former theoretician of General Metaxas' inter-war authoritarian regime, and the expatriate Loizidis brothers, Savvas and Sokratis. In May 1951 , these men solicited the services of retired Colonel Georgios Grivas, a seasoned warrior and die-hard nationalist of Cypriot descent. According to Savvas Loizidis, the prospect of armed struggle had the blessing of Archbishop Spyridon of Athens, while Makarios himself had appeared willing to discuss it. Exactly a year later, while in Athens, Makarios came under pressure to sanction a concrete plan of action. In the event, a Struggle Committee was formed and organisational groundwork commenced.

Yet Makarios' attitude to the use of force remained ambiguous even after Grivas' plans got under way. At the same time, he proved unwilling or unable to distance himself from the ring of extremists in Athens, possibly because he wanted to retain a measure of control over their actions too. Thus, in March 1953, Makarios joined the other members of the Struggle Committee in taking an oath to support Enosis unto death, in the fashion of nineteenth century secret societies. At that point, Grivas was appointed military chief of the struggle, but the Archbishop reserved the last word for himself." Makarios' conversion to the use of force appeared complete by June 1953, but he would continue to disagree with Grivas and his associates over the scale of the operations, which he wanted limited to acts of sabotage.

The plans for armed struggle in Cyprus had been known to Papagos since their inception, as some of those involved, like General Georgios Kosmas, belonged to his entourage. Colonel Grivas claimed that the Field Marshal had never given any encouragement, while, after his coming to power, he sought to stop the Colonel's scheming through various intermediaries, at one point threatening him with arrest. Yet the fact remains that Papagos and his government raised no obstacles to the illicit activities of Grivas and his associates in the Struggle Committee. His sole concern, as Grivas notes, was to ensure that his personal knowledge of the plot remained secret. At the same time, he turned a blind eye to the collusion of Greek officials with the preparation of the struggle.

By the time the Greek government decided to raise the Cyprus question at the UN, Greek foreign policy-makers envisaged some show of force in Cyprus as a last resort. By way of contrast, Colonel Grivas and the Struggle Committee insisted that the diplomatic effort should be complemented by dynamic methods. Makarios had also come to share this view, although he continued to insist that operations be limited to sabotage. However, although he was recognised as supreme authority of the future struggle, he had little control over Grivas' planning. Thus, on 2 March 1954, the first shipload of arms and explosives safely landed on an isolated Cyprus beach.

Following Armitage's anti-seditious pronouncements in August, Makarios asked Grivas to step up preparations. Then, the dilemma arose whether to sanction the use of force pending the discussion of the Greek item at the General Assembly or to await its outcome. In Makarios' view, some acts of sabotage might prove sufficient to impress foreign opinion, particularly in the United States, that the prolongation of British rule in Cyprus was fast leading to a new crisis in the Middle East. On his way to New York in early October 1954, Makarios saw Grivas in Athens and asked him to wait for his signal. At the UN seat, however, he found Kyrou still hopeful that a change in US attitude could be achieved without resort to violent means. Thus, it was decided to postpone action until after the Assembly.

Nonetheless, Grivas embarked for Cyprus in late October. He arrived there on 10 November and methodically set about organising small guerrilla groups, which he trained in the use of arms and explosives. For manpower, Grivas tapped the reservoir of former PEON [Pancyprian National Youth Organization] members. At the same time he set up an effective network of intelligence and couriers in villages and towns. To this end, he relied on the loyal co-operation of Azinas and his associates in PEK [All-Farmers Union of Cyprus].

Back in Cyprus after the General Assembly, the Archbishop met Grivas on 11 January 1955 and gave him the green light. According to Makarios, Kyrou had advised action right after the UN debacle, while Papagos had come round the idea too. D-day was set for 25 March, Greek Independence Day. The capture of 'Agios Georgios' with its cargo of explosives and other difficulties only caused a slight delay. On Makarios' insistence, there would be only acts of sabotage against military targets. Eventually, during the night of 31 March-1 April, EOKA would enter the stage with blasts that rocked the island.

From the outset, AKEL would come out against the use offeree. In his Reminiscences, Secretary-General Papaioannou claims that, as early as mid-1954, he had been warned by an unnamed Greek officer to 'keep out of the struggle'. In December, the party condemned as provocative the violent incidents which took place in the aftermath of the Greek failure at the UN and threatened to undermine inter-communal relations. On 13 January 1955, its Central Committee denounced the allusions of the Athens radio broadcasts to violence and declared its commitment to a struggle by peaceful means. Equally damning was the party's first reaction to the EOKA explosions of 1 April 1955. Having helped to set the genie free by commencing the drive towards internationalisation, the Communist Party of Cyprus had by then forsaken its ability to influence the course of events.
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Postby Murataga » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:11 am

Piratis wrote:Anyways, I know why you wrote in bold the "Foreign Affairs Committee Publications", and everybody knows. Now after your source was trashed you are looking for a way out, but it is too late.


You may well wish upon what I wrote but anyone who read the exchange of posts knows that I bolded it to underline that it did not appear only in Turkses but it appeared in (and I got it from) Foreign Affairs Committee Publications (and it did). Knowing in advance that you and your buddy GR would dive in to your masturbation parade (I believe GR is still in your bathroom), I explicitly wrote down who the provider of the evidence was (which you have failed to do subsequently in your post). For having found a name, which I initially posted, you apparently believe you made some kind of point... pathetic. Additionally, you have mentioned/provided absolutely nothing that makes it unsubstantiated. But even at this, I posted another source for you - yet no response... It is only obvious that you are the one looking to end your misery yet it is impossible for you at this point in time.

Piratis wrote:And you didn't nullify anything. If nothing else you admitted that you have ethnically cleansed 100s of thousands and killed many 1000s, proving what I always said: That the Turks were committing the massive crimes by killing people by the 1000s within days and ehtnically cleansing them by the 100s of thousands, and now they come to pretend to be the victims because they also had a few 100s of loses, as if we were supposed to be attacked by them all the time and never reply.


Fine than... if you are so confident let`s make a deal: Every time you make your magical number claims, be sure to make reference to the two posts. How about it? 8)

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#188892

and

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#188032
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Postby Get Real! » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:17 pm

Murataga wrote:
Piratis wrote:Anyways, I know why you wrote in bold the "Foreign Affairs Committee Publications", and everybody knows. Now after your source was trashed you are looking for a way out, but it is too late.


You may well wish upon what I wrote but anyone who read the exchange of posts knows that I bolded it to underline that it did not appear only in Turkses but it appeared in (and I got it from) Foreign Affairs Committee Publications (and it did). Knowing in advance that you and your buddy GR would dive in to your masturbation parade (I believe GR is still in your bathroom), I explicitly wrote down who the provider of the evidence was (which you have failed to do subsequently in your post). For having found a name, which I initially posted, you apparently believe you made some kind of point... pathetic. Additionally, you have mentioned/provided absolutely nothing that makes it unsubstantiated. But even at this, I posted another source for you - yet no response... It is only obvious that you are the one looking to end your misery yet it is impossible for you at this point in time.

Piratis wrote:And you didn't nullify anything. If nothing else you admitted that you have ethnically cleansed 100s of thousands and killed many 1000s, proving what I always said: That the Turks were committing the massive crimes by killing people by the 1000s within days and ehtnically cleansing them by the 100s of thousands, and now they come to pretend to be the victims because they also had a few 100s of loses, as if we were supposed to be attacked by them all the time and never reply.


Fine than... if you are so confident let`s make a deal: Every time you make your magical number claims, be sure to make reference to the two posts. How about it? 8)

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#188892

and

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#188032

You just don't know when to quit do you? This battle was decided last night when you were exposed quoting from Turkey-hired propaganda pros and yet you are still unashamedly scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to save face while licking your wounds!

Last night you lost TWO threads in one go; it was a disaster for you, and you’re just going to have to accept it and move on to fight another day or I can taunt you till the cows come home… the choice is yours.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:51 pm

Thats right Get Real! He came here with a quote supposedly coming from Makarios, and when we told him that Makarios never said such thing and it was a product of the Turkish propaganda, he tried to trick us by saying that his source was the "Foreign Affairs" of the UK. He failed miserably in his attempt, we have proven that in fact that quote was a fake one, and now he is just trying to cover the issue that he started with his lies.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:00 pm

About the numbers, the exact number of refugees is not know.

Still Murataga, without himself giving us the exact number, he is trying to tell me that my numbers are "inaccurate" as if it makes a difference to the scale of the crime they committed against us if the number of refugees is 200.000 or 180.000 or at the very least 162.000.

We have just proven him to be liar by posting fake quotes of Makarios, and then he is trying to score points claiming "inaccuracy" in the numbers. :roll:
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Postby Murataga » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:08 pm

You are claiming victory for having found the author I explicitly presented (and which you subsequently failed to mention in a post with similar context). You are claiming victory as I nullified GR`s claim that I got it from Turkses (interested parties are welcomed to browse through the posts) as I showed you it appeared in Foreign Affairs Publications as evidence presented by a person that I explicitly mentioned (nothing more nothing less). You are claiming victory as you`ve shown no information/evidence that the quote is false yet simply wish upon it. You are claiming victory after bringing here a quote that was supposedly help you but turned out to be something not even claimed by your offical governments -sheer humiliation. You are claiming victory although I`ve shown you another source that contains the quote, yet you swiftly ignore it ( From David Carter- author of The Cyprus Tapes : http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/UNFICYP.html ). You are claiming victory for refusing to call your numbers inaccurate while your government does not even produce/promote them.

If this is your claim for victory, victors you shall be 8)
Last edited by Murataga on Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:17 pm

The quote was a product of Turkish propaganda, and this is proven by the fact that it is written only by anti-GCs propagandists and in no reputable source. You tried to give validity to your course and you failed.

Makarios was a honorable Cypriot that fought for the freedom of this island, against criminals like Murataga that wanted and continue to want the partition of Cyprus and destroy its long history.
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Postby Murataga » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:33 pm

Piratis wrote:The quote was a product of Turkish propaganda, and this is proven by the fact that it is written only by anti-GCs propagandists and in no reputable source. You tried to give validity to your course and you failed.

Makarios was a honorable Cypriot that fought for the freedom of this island, against criminals like Murataga that wanted and continue to want the partition of Cyprus and destroy its long history.


Are you unable to read or just plain ignorant? Try again:

You are claiming victory for having found the author I explicitly presented (and which you subsequently failed to mention in a post with similar context). You are claiming victory as I nullified GR`s claim that I got it from Turkses (interested parties are welcomed to browse through the posts) as I showed you it appeared in Foreign Affairs Publications as evidence presented by a person that I explicitly mentioned (nothing more nothing less). You are claiming victory as you`ve shown no information/evidence that the quote is false yet simply wish upon it. You are claiming victory after bringing here a quote that was supposedly help you but turned out to be something not even claimed by your offical governments -sheer humiliation. You are claiming victory although I`ve shown you another source that contains the quote, yet you swiftly ignore it ( From David Carter- author of The Cyprus Tapes : http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/UNFICYP.html ). You are claiming victory for refusing to call your numbers inaccurate while your government does not even produce/promote them.

If this is your claim for victory, victors you shall be 8)
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