Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

I've read in many threads very wide ranging figures for the numbers of people killed in the 1974 interventions and since then (as well as before). few days ago there was a good, brief article in The Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2137478,00.html reviewing how difficult it is for journalists to report accurately the numbers of people killed in war (their focus was on the Iraq War).

I'm sure we all have lots of opinions and guesses as to how many and of which communities were killed, injured and displaced, but can anyone tell us year by year - say from 1960 to the present day - quite how many were the casualties of war. Crucially, can you tell us your source for these figures so that they can be compared ?

Counting the casualties of war is not the dry, heartless exercise it might first appear to be, for only if we're broadly agreed is there any chance that we can examine the scale of the calamity and tragedy and begin to think about remedy, and perhaps even reconciliation.

Again I don't want to sound heartless but the scale of the Cyprus tragedy, even on the worst figures I've read, pales into insignificance compared with other tragedies around the world over which remedy and reconciliation have in fact been achieved.

[Piratis]

CopperLine, I can not tell you exact numbers (e.g. 7898).

However roughly the numbers are as follows:

During the first inter communal conflict in the late 50s, a few 100s of people from each side.

During the inter-communal conflict between 63-68, again a few 100s of people from each side.

Then between 68-74 there was no bloody conflict between TCs and GCs until the Turkish invasion started on July 20th. The Turkish invasion killed about 6000 GCs, and GCs killed about 200-300 TCs (and this was after the invasion had started). The Turkish invading forces also had some casualties but they never disclosed them.

Again I don't want to sound heartless but the scale of the Cyprus tragedy, even on the worst figures I've read, pales into insignificance compared with other tragedies around the world over which remedy and reconciliation have in fact been achieved.

If you are talking about the inter communal conflict that is true. Some 100s of victims over a period of 5 years is not much more than the people killed in traffic accidents in Cyprus during a similar period now.

However during the Turkish invasion 1000s of people were killed within days, and 100s of thousands were ethnically cleansed. Compared to the Cyprus population that is a very big number.

The problem in Cyprus is that reconciliation doesn't suit the interests of some. They want the conflict to continue, because this conflict between the two communities is what gives them the excuse to continue having their demands. If everybody in Cyprus were friends, then how would they excuse the need to keep people separate based on their ethnic background?

[Pyrpolizer]

CopperLine such detailed information (including the injured) is not available my friend.
What we know is this:
a)From 1960-1974 about 800 TCs killed and about 400 GCs. This information is in the Cyprus conflict web site and various other sites
b)There is a web site giving names dates even time for each one of the 800 TCs, it was given in this forum about a month ago.
c)In 1974 the GCs had about 6000 dead and about 1500 missing (presumed dead). Both civilian and military. There is a detailed web site listing the missing but I have not seen any listing for the dead.
d)There is no official number for the Turkish losses for 1974, no official listing. Just estimates. Most estimates I ve seen on the web range the number from 300-3000
e)The listing described at b continues upto the end of 1974 even in 1975 (!) so it should include TCs who died in 1974 war.

I am sure some other people in this forum will assist with providing you the links.

Regarding the numbers, we are a small place here my friend. Before 1974 we were hardly a little more than half a million.

Behind each dead person there IS ALWAYS a whole family and a mother crying.

NB. Can i ask what is your nationality? You seem to me like a mainland Turk of the diaspora. Just curious, you presence here is very welcomed anyway. It will just help us understand you better.

[Chimera]

Why are you all so concerned with actual numbers?

A wrong is a wrong!

As Stalin said "One death is a tragedy, a thousand dead is just a statistic".

Is anyone likely to say we did not kill enough during that particular conflict, lets do it again only bigger!

I know we are talking about the Turkish army here so maybe logic is unreliable

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh the people who became refugees by force were about 180,000 GCs (in population of about 420,000 GCs+120,000 TCs)

In 1975 some 50,000 TCs moved voluntarily to the north.

Some web sites give only the total number of refugees as 230,000...

[CopperLine]

This is an example of the problem:

Piratis writes

100s of thousands were ethnically cleansed.

That is 100,000s, plural. A few minutes later Pyropolizer posts with figures that are, at their maximum, in the under ten thousand range and says that the population of Cyprus in 1974 was about half a million, i.e, 500,000.

It is not that I'm not grateful for you posting these figures but I hope that you'll see how easily the confusion arises. Something just doesn't stack up here.

Behind each dead person there IS ALWAYS a whole family and a mother crying.

Well even if not always ALWAYS I take your point. But this holds true for most organised violence across the world.



Pyropolizer,

Can i ask what is your nationality? ....

As determined as you are to find out personal information so I'm committed to not revealing it. Why ? Because in my view it is more likely to be a fuel for prejudice than a guide to healthy debate. Plus, I loathe nationalism.

Chimera,

A wrong is a wrong!

You are so wrong ! But this is a subject for another day .....

Incidentally, Stalin is reputed to have said "One killing is murder, one million killings is just a statistic."

[Piratis]

That is 100,000s, plural. A few minutes later Pyropolizer posts with figures that are, at their maximum, in the under ten thousand range and says that the population of Cyprus in 1974 was about half a million, i.e, 500,000.

Pyropolizer is talking about the number killed. Ethnic cleansing is not just about killing people, it is also the act of forcibly removing them from their homeland, and that is exactly what the Turkish army did in Cyprus. The northern part of Cyprus is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs. All those GCs were forcibly removed from that part of Cyprus, and replaced with Turkish settlers.

Here is the definition of ethnic cleansing:

The term ethnic cleansing refers to various policies of forcibly removing people of another ethnic group. At one end of the spectrum, it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population transfer, while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide.

[Murataga]

This is an example of the problem:

Piratis writes

100s of thousands were ethnically cleansed.

That is 100,000s, plural. A few minutes later Pyropolizer posts with figures that are, at their maximum, in the under ten thousand range and says that the population of Cyprus in 1974 was about half a million, i.e, 500,000.

It is not that I'm not grateful for you posting these figures but I hope that you'll see how easily the confusion arises. Something just doesn't stack up here.

Please see the following regarding the "6k dead" lie and notice that these people will not post any credible resources regarding this number- simply because they can`t and even their governments don`t.

The "6k dead" figure is an unethical lie to gain sympathy and distort realities. At this juncture, it is extremely important to underline that even the official state sources of the Greeks/GCs refrain from mentioning numbers of dead and simply try to manipulate by naming it at the "thousands" (as you have diagnosed this kind of perversion with Piratis` post). Here are the examples:

(a) Permanent Mission of Greece to the United Nations: ( www.greeceun.org )

"Moreover, thousands of people, including civilians, were killed or ill-treated by the Turkish invaders."

(b) The embassy of the illegal GC regime under "RoC" to the United States ( http://www.cyprusembassy.net )

"The human cost was immense. Thousands of Greek Cypriots were killed or maimed as a result of the actions of the invading Turkish army."

These people have lied and their lies have been exposed time and time again. The true figures are far from what is being reflected. Minority Rights Group International ( www.minorityrights.org ), who gave a biased interpretation of the Cyprus conflict in the favour of the GCs even mentions:

"An estimated 3,000 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots had been killed within a month."

Even in a figure of 3000, the time of deaths includes the interval in which the fighting between the GCs occured during the coup. Here are just a few other credible journals that have reported on the number of deaths during the coup:

Die Zeit, 30 August 1974

"In the four days that followed the coup, an estimated 2000 people, known to be ardent supporters of Makarios were killed. Their names were later added to those killed during the subsequent Turkish invasion."

Combat, Belgium, 25 July 1974

"It has been confirmed that during the days following the coup in Nicosia at least 2000 of Makarios`s supporters have either been killed in the fighting or executed"

The number of dead and missing as a consequence of the coup have been reflected directly on to the Turkish Peace Operation and multiplied by some imaginary factors to manipulate and distort realities. Here are undisputable resources pointing to this along with a relevant confession by the GC leader:

Ambassador Nelson Ledsky sworn testimony before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, 17 April 1991

"Most of the missing persons disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson."

GC President Glafkos Clerides, Cyprus Mail, 27 October 1995

" Following a study of 487 of the 1,619 cases of missing Greek Cypriots by the Attorney-General's office, 96 people were found to have died in action."

Cyprus Mail, 3 March 1996

"(Greek) Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of atrocities during the 15th July coup in an attempt to downplay its contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame the Turkish invasion for all casualties. There can be no justification for any government that failed to investigate this sensitive humanitarian issue. The shocking admission by the Clerides government that there are people buried in Nicosia cemetery who are still included in the list of the "missing" is the last episode of a human drama which has been turned into a propaganda tool."

As for the "200k" (or "hundreds of thousands" -implying even more) I will just present the following which exclusively belongs to the Greek/GC side of the story- which is what we usually do not agree. However, given the context of the discussion I believe it is important to underline even what the "official" sources of these people claim:

(1) Permanent Mission of Greece to the United Nations: ( www.greeceun.org )

"In July 1974, using as a pretext the coup against President Makarios, Turkey alleging a right of "intervention" as guarantor of the 1960 Constitution, invaded Cyprus, occupied 35% of its territory and forcibly expelled about 142.000 Greek Cypriots living there. ...In addition, about 1500 Greek Cypriots are still missing as a result of the invasion while some other 20000 Greek Cypriots, who remained in the occupied area after the invasion, were forced over the years to abandon their homes and join other refugees in the free areas."

(2) The embassy of the illegal GC regime under "RoC" the United States ( http://www.cyprusembassy.net )

"In July of that year the Greek Cypriot population of the area presently occupied by the Turkish army was 162,000. "

[Piratis]

Murataga, I talked about 1000s of GCs being killed and 100s of thousands being ethnically cleansed. Your quotes simply prove what I said.

Even if we assume and your numbers are right, and it was 3000 + 1600 missing which are presumably dead = 4600 instead of 6000, does that make the scale of your atrocities less?

The same with the refugees. Would it make your invasion any less barbaric if instead of 200.000, the exact figure is 162.000?

The same, by the way, could be said about your numbers. In the numbers you give about the TC casulties you include people that were murdered by your own TMT, and even people that were killed in accidents, but it suited you to add them as your victims of the intercomunal conflict.

[DT.]

,

Can i ask what is your nationality? ....

As determined as you are to find out personal information so I'm committed to not revealing it. Why ? Because in my view it is more likely to be a fuel for prejudice than a guide to healthy debate. Plus, I loathe nationalism.
"

we can guess don't worry about it.