Cyprus-Forum.com

[Jerry]

Pyropolizer,

Can i ask what is your nationality? ....

As determined as you are to find out personal information so I'm committed to not revealing it. Why ? Because in my view it is more likely to be a fuel for prejudice than a guide to healthy debate. Plus, I loathe nationalism.

Copperline why prejudice? I already knew you were either TC or mainland Turk. Reading your posts I now know which of the two you are, and believe me, i respect you the same.

Pyropolizer, I would say judging by his command of the English language Copperline is most probably British or at least he received much of his education in the UK. To me it's not important what his nationality is since his views seem generally unbiased and make a lot of sense. I'm pretty sure he is not Turkish but if he is (unlikely) it's a pity there aren't more like him.

[pantheman]

Pyropolizer,

Can i ask what is your nationality? ....

As determined as you are to find out personal information so I'm committed to not revealing it. Why ? Because in my view it is more likely to be a fuel for prejudice than a guide to healthy debate. Plus, I loathe nationalism.

Copperline why prejudice? I already knew you were either TC or mainland Turk. Reading your posts I now know which of the two you are, and believe me, i respect you the same.

Pyropolizer, I would say judging by his command of the English language Copperline is most probably British or at least he received much of his education in the UK. To me it's not important what his nationality is since his views seem generally unbiased and make a lot of sense. I'm pretty sure he is not Turkish but if he is (unlikely) it's a pity there aren't more like him.

Well, why doesn't he just right out and say so? If i had to guess i would have said Turkish parents but lived in the US/UK most or all of his life. Sees the Turkish side more favourable throught US/UK eyes. The posts are not unbiased at all, the are always leaning in the favour of the Turkish side. Jerry, out of curiosity what are you ? My guess is you are def not GC which is why you cannot detect the bias.

Copperline, god bless him/her seems very knowledgable in international affairs, but if you really breakdown what is written it comes down to not much, so i would say a politician of some description since they always talk in riddles.

Come on copperline what are you ????

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Viewpoint, what I always say is that we should leave the past behind, end all illegalities in Cyprus, forgive each other and move ahead with a normal democratic country in Cyprus like all the other in EU.

We can not be like just any other EU from day 1 we still have to evlove. We have our own unique history which has brought with it insecurities on both sides and the only way forward is prove that the opposite sides fears and concerns are unfounded by creating a structure via BBF and political equality as per UN proposals.

The "blame game" is always started by you, since you are trying to use a selective and distorted version of history in order to excuse your insistance on illegalities and your demands for keeping Cypriots separated based on their ethnic background.

Apparently though you want to start the "blame game" but when all the facts are presented you don't like it.

You are the kettle and I am the pot....in other ones this is not a one way street and we are just as bad as one another. Do you agree?

So, it is not just that the Turks killed more (WAY more) GCs, it is also the fact that the Turks started the whole conflict, that they are at least as responsible for the late 50s early 60s conflicts, and that they continue with illegalities and crimes today and for the last 33 years.

So yes, if you look history as a whole and not only the events that suit you, it is very clear that Turks have the biggest share of guilt for the problems of Cyprus.

So you h me resposible for what the Ottomans did and I hold you responsible for what you father did to me community...can you not see the difference and the kin that you have stored up over the years...so you were making us pay for those times from 1963 onwards..if thats the case then whats to say you wont do the same all over again?

Still, we are willing to forgive you for that, as long as you stop being hostile against us, give us back our land and our rights, so we can finally have peace on this island. Unfortunately, instead of doing the same as well, you take those few events that suit you, you exaggerate them by a factor of 100 while at the same time diminishing the harm you have done to us, all in an effort to excuse yet more crimes and illegalities against us.

Forgiving takes time and lots of safeguards, transition periods and building to trust which will lead to better cooperation and the Country you long for...this will not happen over night.

So no, it is not just the amount of dead. Thats just one of the factors. The others being that the Turks are the ones who started it, that the Turks are the ones who oppressed us for a MUCH longer time, and that the Turks are the ones who without any regrets they continue with crimes and illegalities today and for the last 3+ decades.

So you are saying 1963 onwards was your right?

So my suggestion to you is to stop playing the "blame game" with me, because no matter how many exaggerations and lies you say, thats a game you are going to loose since the truth is so obvious and the events so many and known, that your propaganda is worthless.

Is this a threat?

How about forgiving each other for the past, stop the illegalities and the suffering of the people today, and finally have in Cyprus a normal country?

How about you get your leaders to get off their arse and start sincere negotiations towards a solution based on BBF and political equality.

I know thats not what you want, since you want to divide Cyprus, and dividing its people by maintaining and increasing the hate between them is part of your policy. However I show all the good will in case you change one day. But until that happens be sure that I will not allow your distorted version of history and your lame excuses for occupying Cyprus to pass.

You are totally wrong because you do not want to understand my viewpoint or may allowances whereas I do not have any objections to GCs refugees getting their land back or the army leaving just as long as a comprehensive solution is reached with safeguards.

[Get Real!]

You are the kettle and I am the pot....in other ones this is not a one way street and we are just as bad as one another. Do you agree?

Yeah, and I'm the tea bag and Zannus is the tea spoon! What the hell are you guys talking about? I dissapear for a couple of days and you're all talking like flower pots!

[Piratis]

We can not be like just any other EU from day 1 we still have to evlove. We have our own unique history which has brought with it insecurities on both sides and the only way forward is prove that the opposite sides fears and concerns are unfounded by creating a structure via BBF and political equality as per UN proposals.

Racist discriminations, no democracy, human rights violations etc are not a way to "evolve". Before we move in to the UN proposals you should obey the UN resolutions and stop the crimes and illegalities.

You are the kettle and I am the pot....in other ones this is not a one way street and we are just as bad as one another. Do you agree?

No I don't agree. What I want is democracy and human rights for all, so don't compare me with you, since what you want is simply to use the big guns of Turkey to gain on the loss of others.

So you h me resposible for what the Ottomans did and I hold you responsible for what you father did to me community...can you not see the difference and the kin that you have stored up over the years...so you were making us pay for those times from 1963 onwards..if thats the case then whats to say you wont do the same all over again?

No, you got it wrong. If you say about my father, then in your case it is your father, your grandfather, your great grandfather, your great great grandfather etc , and also YOU.

The Ottomans are just one part of it. What about your collaboration with the colonialists and that you started the inter communal conflict against us? What about the TMT? What about the Turkish occupation for the last 33 years?

So in a few words you started with crimes against us during the Ottoman era and you continue almost non stop until today.

Forgiving takes time and lots of safeguards, transition periods and building to trust which will lead to better cooperation and the Country you long for...this will not happen over night.

The first step for forgiving is that the crimes and illegalities become part of the past. If you insist on occupying our land and violating our rights, then how will we ever move ahead?

So you are saying 1963 onwards was your right?

What I am saying is that for the 5 years of conflict between 63-68 we have an equal share of blame. But history is not just those 5 years. During the rest 99% of the time, before and after that, you were the ones committing the crimes against us, something that continues until today.

How about you get your leaders to get off their arse and start sincere negotiations towards a solution based on BBF and political equality.

We had enough of negotiations without result because what you want is to Turkify part of our country. So start obeying the UN resolutions.

You are totally wrong because you do not want to understand my viewpoint or may allowances whereas I do not have any objections to GCs refugees getting their land back or the army leaving just as long as a comprehensive solution is reached with safeguards.

No mate, I understand VERY well your viewpoint. What you want is to officially make the north part of Cyprus Turkish. Beyond that if you will allow a minority of GCs to live there or not is of little importance to me.

The northern part of our island is the homeland of 5 times more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots, and we have a history there far longer than yours. So you should forget about any agreement that will officially make that part of our country Turkish.

[Jerry]

Pyropolizer,

Can i ask what is your nationality? ....

As determined as you are to find out personal information so I'm committed to not revealing it. Why ? Because in my view it is more likely to be a fuel for prejudice than a guide to healthy debate. Plus, I loathe nationalism.

Copperline why prejudice? I already knew you were either TC or mainland Turk. Reading your posts I now know which of the two you are, and believe me, i respect you the same.

Pyropolizer, I would say judging by his command of the English language Copperline is most probably British or at least he received much of his education in the UK. To me it's not important what his nationality is since his views seem generally unbiased and make a lot of sense. I'm pretty sure he is not Turkish but if he is (unlikely) it's a pity there aren't more like him.

Well, why doesn't he just right out and say so? If i had to guess i would have said Turkish parents but lived in the US/UK most or all of his life. Sees the Turkish side more favourable throught US/UK eyes. The posts are not unbiased at all, the are always leaning in the favour of the Turkish side. Jerry, out of curiosity what are you ? My guess is you are def not GC which is why you cannot detect the bias.

Copperline, god bless him/her seems very knowledgable in international affairs, but if you really breakdown what is written it comes down to not much, so i would say a politician of some description since they always talk in riddles.

Come on copperline what are you ????

Pantheman, if you care to read some of my posts you will see that I am most definately of GC origin.
Just because you don't agree with CL does not mean he must have Turkish connections. Most of his points are based on law and his interpretations of law.
Read his posts again with an open mind, I think you have misjudged him, as you did my origins.

[CopperLine]

Pyropolizer et.al,
Recent speculative posts reconfirm my reasons for keeping quiet.

Jerry, I'm grateful for you saying that "it's not important what his nationality is..." Much appreciated and reciprocated.

Returning to the main title of the thread, as far as I am aware there have been three main ways in which tragic social divisions have ultimatley been overcome. First is "victor's justice" in which, regardless of casualties, regardless of the scale or ferocity of wrongs, the victor imposes a new order/constituion. For example, 1945 in Germany and Japan. The second type is for a multi-party negotiation in which the origins and causes of the social division are investigated, numbers of casulties carefully examined and a new order negotiated. The third way, and something that has been characteristic of some of the longest divisions where brother killed brother, if the establishment of 'truth and reconcialiation' commissions. The aim of these is less to assign blame and to punish and more to simply bring out the truth and thereby allow reconciliartion. This model was used succesfully in South Africa, in Chile, in Argentina and in Guatemala, and it can be done separate from any new constitution making.

Connected, but at a slight tangent to this, it is real testament to one time bitterest of enemies that the newly discovered war dead of the first (and second) world war are buried with dignity through multi-national cooperation amongst war time enemies. (This also occurd with more recent coflicts such as the Vietnam war). The issues of 'who started it' and 'who is to blame' and 'who killed more' are set aside.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Racist discriminations, no democracy, human rights violations etc are not a way to "evolve". Before we move in to the UN proposals you should obey the UN resolutions and stop the crimes and illegalities.

Just as soon as you agree a comprehensive solution via a BBF and political eqaulity so we know exactly what we letting ourselves in for..its real easy when you sincerely want a solution, but as you know I have great doubts about GC leadership being sincere as they have 90% of what they want already.

No I don't agree. What I want is democracy and human rights for all, so don't compare me with you, since what you want is simply to use the big guns of Turkey to gain on the loss of others.

I was trying tp be complimentary but of course it would go right over the head of someone with a blinkered vision.

No, you got it wrong. If you say about my father, then in your case it is your father, your grandfather, your great grandfather, your great great grandfather etc , and also YOU.

The Ottomans are just one part of it. What about your collaboration with the colonialists and that you started the inter communal conflict against us? What about the TMT? What about the Turkish occupation for the last 33 years?

So in a few words you started with crimes against us during the Ottoman era and you continue almost non stop until today.

So all of history from 1571 to date is why we have division, is that what you are saying?

So lets get this right our suffering during the only time we had a chance to rule ourselves was a payback for previous bad doings of our predessesors?

You have stated yourself many times that you were also against the 1960 agreements...which you signed, so obviously you were not going to adhere to them which is what unfolded and our retaliation and right to defend ourselves against enosis, discrimination, supression and fear of anniahalation ended in division.

Why does the current situation continue? do you have nay stake in this? or is it down to the evil TCs and Turks?

The first step for forgiving is that the crimes and illegalities become part of the past. If you insist on occupying our land and violating our rights, then how will we ever move ahead?

Piratis in order to get wgat you want, I will say it again unrelentlessly the solution stares you in the face and the foundations have been established..its called the AP go back and propose and pursue the changes that will make your people say YES, no one is going to produce another such indepth plan so you wiil have to lick up what you spat out as it is the only plan around that contains elements for a comprehensive solution. If our side does not acknowledge your proposed changed Im sure the UN will and then we will be forced to take it seriously.

What I am saying is that for the 5 years of conflict between 63-68 we have an equal share of blame. But history is not just those 5 years. During the rest 99% of the time, before and after that, you were the ones committing the crimes against us, something that continues until today.

Man the abpve statement says more about you than it wil ever say about TCs, keep up the good work.

No mate, I understand VERY well your viewpoint. What you want is to officially make the north part of Cyprus Turkish. Beyond that if you will allow a minority of GCs to live there or not is of little importance to me.

The northern part of our island is the homeland of 5 times more Greek Cypriots than Turkish Cypriots, and we have a history there far longer than yours. So you should forget about any agreement that will officially make that part of our country Turkish.

Then if you stick to the above arguement you have no other option other than to ait for that swing you long for...all I can say is good luck.

[zan]

Pyropolizer et.al,
Recent speculative posts reconfirm my reasons for keeping quiet.

Jerry, I'm grateful for you saying that "it's not important what his nationality is..." Much appreciated and reciprocated.

Returning to the main title of the thread, as far as I am aware there have been three main ways in which tragic social divisions have ultimatley been overcome. First is "victor's justice" in which, regardless of casualties, regardless of the scale or ferocity of wrongs, the victor imposes a new order/constituion. For example, 1945 in Germany and Japan. The second type is for a multi-party negotiation in which the origins and causes of the social division are investigated, numbers of casulties carefully examined and a new order negotiated. The third way, and something that has been characteristic of some of the longest divisions where brother killed brother, if the establishment of 'truth and reconcialiation' commissions. The aim of these is less to assign blame and to punish and more to simply bring out the truth and thereby allow reconciliartion. This model was used succesfully in South Africa, in Chile, in Argentina and in Guatemala, and it can be done separate from any new constitution making.

Connected, but at a slight tangent to this, it is real testament to one time bitterest of enemies that the newly discovered war dead of the first (and second) world war are buried with dignity through multi-national cooperation amongst war time enemies. (This also occurd with more recent coflicts such as the Vietnam war). The issues of 'who started it' and 'who is to blame' and 'who killed more' are set aside.

We are ready when thay are. It still takes two to tango.

[Jerry]

Pyropolizer et.al,
Recent speculative posts reconfirm my reasons for keeping quiet.

Jerry, I'm grateful for you saying that "it's not important what his nationality is..." Much appreciated and reciprocated.

Returning to the main title of the thread, as far as I am aware there have been three main ways in which tragic social divisions have ultimatley been overcome. First is "victor's justice" in which, regardless of casualties, regardless of the scale or ferocity of wrongs, the victor imposes a new order/constituion. For example, 1945 in Germany and Japan. The second type is for a multi-party negotiation in which the origins and causes of the social division are investigated, numbers of casulties carefully examined and a new order negotiated. The third way, and something that has been characteristic of some of the longest divisions where brother killed brother, if the establishment of 'truth and reconcialiation' commissions. The aim of these is less to assign blame and to punish and more to simply bring out the truth and thereby allow reconciliartion. This model was used succesfully in South Africa, in Chile, in Argentina and in Guatemala, and it can be done separate from any new constitution making.

Connected, but at a slight tangent to this, it is real testament to one time bitterest of enemies that the newly discovered war dead of the first (and second) world war are buried with dignity through multi-national cooperation amongst war time enemies. (This also occurd with more recent coflicts such as the Vietnam war). The issues of 'who started it' and 'who is to blame' and 'who killed more' are set aside.

We are ready when thay are. It still takes two to tango.

The problem is Zan, as I see it, most TC posters on this site( who may or may not be representitive of the TC population) refuse to accept equal blame for the current situation. That to me must be the starting point for genuine and sincere reconciliation.