Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

I raise a finger to the Turkish Army, that not only screws people in Turkey but has kept the Turkish Cypriots under oppression for 33 years.

[zan]

Funny isn't it. We stand inside the castle walls with our allies and you are on the outside stopping any food getting in (well at least trying to) and you tell us that tose inside are keeping us hostage...Funny guys..

[CopperLine]

Cypezkoyli,
Many thanks for the info and background on various army related companies. Very helpful.

Pyropolizer,

Armies are always NEGATIVE ON THE OVERALL of pushing an economy forward

As I said before, I personally would wish army spending and the army's role in the economy to be massively reduced. War and preparing for war is really bad for human health and welfare ! But it cannot be denied that military developmens, technological and well as organisational, have been absolutely central to the development of the modern economy. Most communications systems - including the internet and mobile phones - originated in military tehcnology and issuing specs for new systems. In the US the Corps of Engineers has always been central to civil road, bridge, dam and levee building - it is one reason that the big US civil engineering contractors are so tightly knit with the army in Iraq - they go back a long way. There are dozens of other examples that one could point to where armies have been key and long term players in an economy and they push that economy forward, and it is not an axiom of economics that military activity is negative. You'd have to ask yourself why are arms companies - or should we say 'defence related' companies - invariably at the forefront of profitability and/or asset size - up there with finance and energy and way ahead of pharma and in proftability at least, way ahead of auto industries ?

My argument is twofold : first the Turkish army has massive institutional strength in Turkey and has shown itself to be basically anti-democratic. If we want a democratic agreeable solution in Cyprus then the Turkish army poses a real block (nothing new there). I don't think that leaving the Turkish army to do what it has always done is an option if you want that democratic peace. Second, the Turkish army presence in Cyprus is not just a military problem, it is an economic one. Again any democratic peace has to consider the economic effects of the withdrawal of the Turkish army, as well as the crucial sense of security/insecurity of TCs that such a move would entail.

bigOz,

In which case, you shouldb be grateful to the Turkish army for protecting your financial interests in Turkey too!

I'm prepared to bet that any number of GC companies and/or companies with operations in Cyprus have got financial interests in Turkish arms and other companies. That's the nature of modern capitalism. Anybody who has a pension scheme, an insurance policy or some savings is more than likely to be receiving (albeit by a sometimes circuitous route) financial benefits from those defence companies. Should we call this blood money ? See again Cypezokyli's post.


DT.

... had there been a civilian government

There has been a civilan government in Turkey since 1983. That is different from saying that the army has not interfered in civilian governments, it clearly has. Nor is this to deny that the Turkish constitution, still to this day, is an army imposed constitution.

the economic boom ...... would have been experienced long before

How so ? I'd agree if you meant that has Turkey joined the EU when it first expressed interest, or when Greece joined, or when Spain and Portugal joined. Thse countries enjoyed massive stimulus to their economy and overall modernisation that Turkey lost out on. In the late 70s Portugal was the poorest country in Europe, most of Spain not far behind. Given Turkey's non-EU membership it has not done too badly in terms of economic growth rates over the last thirty years. Which coutries would you be comparing Turkey to, anyway ?

Turkey required the stability of a civilian govt which would be afforded the time and space to implement a macroeconomic plan for the country...a period of time where no coups were conducted by the army over what they perceived is the wish of the people so that foreign investors could be attracted to this rich land.

This sounds like a description of the AKP

I really can't see how you guys are trying to spin that an army is best suited to run that country.

I was arguing exactly the opposite of what you've just reported here. Specifically in relation to the Cyprus problem, the Turkish army MUST be subject to democratic control and accountability. It is in every ones' interests - Cypriots and Turks.

[pitsilos]

Cypezkoyli,
Many thanks for the info and background on various army related companies. Very helpful.

Pyropolizer,

Armies are always NEGATIVE ON THE OVERALL of pushing an economy forward

As I said before, I personally would wish army spending and the army's role in the economy to be massively reduced. War and preparing for war is really bad for human health and welfare ! But it cannot be denied that military developmens, technological and well as organisational, have been absolutely central to the development of the modern economy. Most communications systems - including the internet and mobile phones - originated in military tehcnology and issuing specs for new systems. In the US the Corps of Engineers has always been central to civil road, bridge, dam and levee building - it is one reason that the big US civil engineering contractors are so tightly knit with the army in Iraq - they go back a long way. There are dozens of other examples that one could point to where armies have been key and long term players in an economy and they push that economy forward, and it is not an axiom of economics that military activity is negative. You'd have to ask yourself why are arms companies - or should we say 'defence related' companies - invariably at the forefront of profitability and/or asset size - up there with finance and energy and way ahead of pharma and in proftability at least, way ahead of auto industries ?

My argument is twofold : first the Turkish army has massive institutional strength in Turkey and has shown itself to be basically anti-democratic. If we want a democratic agreeable solution in Cyprus then the Turkish army poses a real block (nothing new there). I don't think that leaving the Turkish army to do what it has always done is an option if you want that democratic peace. Second, the Turkish army presence in Cyprus is not just a military problem, it is an economic one. Again any democratic peace has to consider the economic effects of the withdrawal of the Turkish army, as well as the crucial sense of security/insecurity of TCs that such a move would entail.

bigOz,

In which case, you shouldb be grateful to the Turkish army for protecting your financial interests in Turkey too!

I'm prepared to bet that any number of GC companies and/or companies with operations in Cyprus have got financial interests in Turkish arms and other companies. That's the nature of modern capitalism. Anybody who has a pension scheme, an insurance policy or some savings is more than likely to be receiving (albeit by a sometimes circuitous route) financial benefits from those defence companies. Should we call this blood money ? See again Cypezokyli's post.


DT.

... had there been a civilian government

There has been a civilan government in Turkey since 1983. That is different from saying that the army has not interfered in civilian governments, it clearly has. Nor is this to deny that the Turkish constitution, still to this day, is an army imposed constitution.

the economic boom ...... would have been experienced long before

How so ? I'd agree if you meant that has Turkey joined the EU when it first expressed interest, or when Greece joined, or when Spain and Portugal joined. Thse countries enjoyed massive stimulus to their economy and overall modernisation that Turkey lost out on. In the late 70s Portugal was the poorest country in Europe, most of Spain not far behind. Given Turkey's non-EU membership it has not done too badly in terms of economic growth rates over the last thirty years. Which coutries would you be comparing Turkey to, anyway ?

Turkey required the stability of a civilian govt which would be afforded the time and space to implement a macroeconomic plan for the country...a period of time where no coups were conducted by the army over what they perceived is the wish of the people so that foreign investors could be attracted to this rich land.

This sounds like a description of the AKP

I really can't see how you guys are trying to spin that an army is best suited to run that country.

I was arguing exactly the opposite of what you've just reported here. Specifically in relation to the Cyprus problem, the Turkish army MUST be subject to democratic control and accountability. It is in every ones' interests - Cypriots and Turks.

you can't make parallels with the US and Turkey...the US military actually invents where as Tukey re-invents the wheel...and poorly at that...

As far as the economics of the occupied areas, I am sure you are aware the standard of living arose three fold since the crossings opened...note this has nothing to do with the army...the opening of the crossings helped one helluve more than the benefits of soldiers spending...

on the res I agree that Turkey needs to look at the 21st century and a place in the EU, but not before the deep state is eliminated and a proper government is installed...Army running business in todays world is a poor example of a democratic country...

Another thing working against Turkey is her own population...by year 2025, and I read this somewhere, 50% will be kurds...Turkey has to move quickly in modernizing her political system or face splitting up down the track...

[pitsilos]

and something I forgot to mention regarding Turkey is the IMF loans, currently Turkey sitting at number 2...In order to reign in these massive loans, you need to reign in the revenue...and this means the money the army gets from these industries...and put the army on a budget, with shallow pockets...

this will most benefit the everyday person in Turkey...

ps...to be honest with you I can't see Turkey making it the next 30 years as a whole...
for one no country with this amount of loans from the IMF has actually seen prosperity to my knowledge...take Brazil and the number one spot Argentina for examples...

[zan]

and something I forgot to mention regarding Turkey is the IMF loans, currently Turkey sitting at number 2...In order to reign in these massive loans, you need to reign in the revenue...and this means the money the army gets from these industries...and put the army on a budget, with shallow pockets...

this will most benefit the everyday person in Turkey...

ps...to be honest with you I can't see Turkey making it the next 30 years as a whole...
for one no country with this amount of loans from the IMF has actually seen prosperity to my knowledge...take Brazil and the number one spot Argentina for examples...

Have another look at your history Pits.....America had the biggest in history and came out of it. You are now going to tell me that Turkey is not America.....Prove it...

[pitsilos]

i believe this thread has progressed to a different level zan..better stick with the time warp

i am not gonna sit here and explain it to you, I will let copperline do it...provided he is got a few months to spare

[pitsilos]

hint zan...america came out of it within, not with props...

[zan]

i believe this thread has progressed to a different level zan..better stick with the time warp

i am not gonna sit here and explain it to you, I will let copperline do it...provided he is got a few months to spare

GO ON YOU HAVE A GO BECAUSE I GENUINLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND..

[pitsilos]

ask copperline in a pm and stop degenariting the thread...