Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Bir you have hit the nail right on the head...the "RoC" have to take concrete measures to bring the 2 communities together because at the moment all the TCs see and experience is Turkey paying for new roads, schools, infrastructure, government salaries etc and the GC leadership blocking flights, direct mail , trade and even friendly football matches. The negative impact of these GC policies are evident today. The current leadership in the south has proven that if re-elected it will do as much as they did in the last 5 years which is nothing. In order to kick start a solution bold measures are necessary from a GC leadership with vision and desire that can stimulate the TC side in action but obviously the desire is not evident as the GCs have 90% of what they wanti their only problem is the refugees and more wealth in the long run.

VP...As far as I am concerned Papadopoulos has been a disappointment.
He has failed to capitalise on Denktash's demise,and allowed Turkey to portray him as the new MR NO...He is no fool.So I can only imagine he knows exactly what he is doing. He is on record for saying he prefers the status quo to any forced agreement. That means he prefers Partition to any kind of solution which falls short of his expectations.Perhaps he is playing politics. Or perhaps he is really able to read the mood of his voters. I am disappointed because his "crush through or crush" tactics is only playing into the hands of Turkey and those on the North who are happy to milk the status quo dry. There is no doubt in my mind that he will crush rather than crush through.Eventually some other more pragmatic GC leader will sign an agreement that would be more damaging to all Cypriots,and certainly not be in the interests of the forces of reunification...Papadopoulos will go down in history as the President who presided over the final division of Cyprus. Denktash will go down in history as the man who planted the seeds of division back in the 50s ,and Talat will go down in history as the man who led the TCs to selfextermination... Hope all this is warming your heart VP...Because my heart is broken...

How would you have dealt witrh Makarios and reece at the time Bir???

I would pour super glue on the TC chairs in the Cyprus government of 63,sit on them,and do not get up... Makarios's proposals were just that.Proposals. Some of them were quiet good for the smoother running of the state affairs...There was no reason for the TCs to walk out of government,and go and sulk in one corner. Unless of course that was what they wanted to do,and were just waiting for the right trigger.
Sure Makarios was trying to water down some of the generous concessions given to the TCs...But he couldn't change anything without the agreement of his VP...(Not viewpoint!!!!) I would've simply come back with my own proposals and keep arguing my points sensibly and logically...The Republic would've survived that small crises and gone on to bigger and better things...

Do you honestly think that would have been possible with the sound of gunfire and bombs outside. I can just see undernourished and dishevelled MPs coming out of the enclaves and travelling safely to work and begging for food and water for their people. Makarios' response would have been ??????????

Zan...i honestly believe that if there was goodwill on both sides things would not have gotten out of hand like they did. There was a legal state being run together by both sides according a constitution which favoured the TCs greatly...There was a joint police force and a joint jandarme.
Turkey and Greece had their token soldiers there...It was not that the security forces were out killing people...some paramilitias on both sides were stirring ethnic troubles for sure...But the security forces wouldve been able to deal with it,had the government stayed intact...Makarios could not have openly kicked the TCs out of his government had they not walked away. Both sides had their own agendas. The Akritas plan tells us what the GC agenda was...An essentially political and legal struggle to achieve Enosis. What we TCs had never been told was the TC agenda...That was to stir up enough trouble to force Turkey to intervene,invade and achieve Taksim...unlike what some people believe in this Forum,the Taksim idea had not originated in Turkey but in Cyprus.Turkey was very relactant to get involved...Why do you think it took them 11 years and a lot of provocation from both sides to come in???
TMT's real aim was to force Turkey's hand to invade whatever the cost...
And invade they did,with a lot of Greek junta and Eoka help...But we can't sweep our role in this under the carpet and blame everything on Makarios..

[BirKibrisli]

Bir I do agree with your coment about a long sulk ........... doyou really believe though that if the RoC invited TC's to take up the positions that they would? I really believe that the trnc administration is just for show. Turkey has no intention of letting it go, its become the bargaining tool for EU membership. The weakness Talat has shown in the past years, illustrate nothing else but his pigeon position.

Provided that measures are taken to make TCs more sure about the demise of Enosis,and make them feel included,as I outlined elsewhere,i believe there would be enough TCs who would be prepared to settle in the Republic controlled areas. Once the wheels of govenment swing into motion,the momentum would bring more and more people back from the diaspora. Cyprus is becoming a liability for Turkey,not an asset in the EU negotiations. Soon Erdogan will be looking for a face saving excuse to pull out. What better excuse if the TCs in the South in their thousands demand reunification...???But let us not hold our breaths,dear humanist...As DT said,Cypriots would rather hold their left ear with their right hand over the top of their heads,instead of just reaching out with the left hand...

[zan]

Bir you have hit the nail right on the head...the "RoC" have to take concrete measures to bring the 2 communities together because at the moment all the TCs see and experience is Turkey paying for new roads, schools, infrastructure, government salaries etc and the GC leadership blocking flights, direct mail , trade and even friendly football matches. The negative impact of these GC policies are evident today. The current leadership in the south has proven that if re-elected it will do as much as they did in the last 5 years which is nothing. In order to kick start a solution bold measures are necessary from a GC leadership with vision and desire that can stimulate the TC side in action but obviously the desire is not evident as the GCs have 90% of what they wanti their only problem is the refugees and more wealth in the long run.

VP...As far as I am concerned Papadopoulos has been a disappointment.
He has failed to capitalise on Denktash's demise,and allowed Turkey to portray him as the new MR NO...He is no fool.So I can only imagine he knows exactly what he is doing. He is on record for saying he prefers the status quo to any forced agreement. That means he prefers Partition to any kind of solution which falls short of his expectations.Perhaps he is playing politics. Or perhaps he is really able to read the mood of his voters. I am disappointed because his "crush through or crush" tactics is only playing into the hands of Turkey and those on the North who are happy to milk the status quo dry. There is no doubt in my mind that he will crush rather than crush through.Eventually some other more pragmatic GC leader will sign an agreement that would be more damaging to all Cypriots,and certainly not be in the interests of the forces of reunification...Papadopoulos will go down in history as the President who presided over the final division of Cyprus. Denktash will go down in history as the man who planted the seeds of division back in the 50s ,and Talat will go down in history as the man who led the TCs to selfextermination... Hope all this is warming your heart VP...Because my heart is broken...

How would you have dealt witrh Makarios and reece at the time Bir???

I would pour super glue on the TC chairs in the Cyprus government of 63,sit on them,and do not get up... Makarios's proposals were just that.Proposals. Some of them were quiet good for the smoother running of the state affairs...There was no reason for the TCs to walk out of government,and go and sulk in one corner. Unless of course that was what they wanted to do,and were just waiting for the right trigger.
Sure Makarios was trying to water down some of the generous concessions given to the TCs...But he couldn't change anything without the agreement of his VP...(Not viewpoint!!!!) I would've simply come back with my own proposals and keep arguing my points sensibly and logically...The Republic would've survived that small crises and gone on to bigger and better things...

Do you honestly think that would have been possible with the sound of gunfire and bombs outside. I can just see undernourished and dishevelled MPs coming out of the enclaves and travelling safely to work and begging for food and water for their people. Makarios' response would have been ??????????

Zan...i honestly believe that if there was goodwill on both sides things would not have gotten out of hand like they did. There was a legal state being run together by both sides according a constitution which favoured the TCs greatly...There was a joint police force and a joint jandarme.
Turkey and Greece had their token soldiers there...It was not that the security forces were out killing people...some paramilitias on both sides were stirring ethnic troubles for sure...But the security forces wouldve been able to deal with it,had the government stayed intact...Makarios could not have openly kicked the TCs out of his government had they not walked away. Both sides had their own agendas. The Akritas plan tells us what the GC agenda was...An essentially political and legal struggle to achieve Enosis. What we TCs had never been told was the TC agenda...That was to stir up enough trouble to force Turkey to intervene,invade and achieve Taksim...unlike what some people believe in this Forum,the Taksim idea had not originated in Turkey but in Cyprus.Turkey was very relactant to get involved...Why do you think it took them 11 years and a lot of provocation from both sides to come in???
TMT's real aim was to force Turkey's hand to invade whatever the cost...
And invade they did,with a lot of Greek junta and Eoka help...But we can't sweep our role in this under the carpet and blame everything on Makarios..

A hell of a lot of contradictions in there Bir...I can't believe you wrote this. Are you just tired?

I have to highlight, in words, just one point because the rest speaks for it self Whether again you are being deliberate or are just tired and confused;You write about the Akritas plan as if that too was legal and just. It may have been established that ENOSIS and the dream of ENOSIS might have been legal, after all you cannot stop people dreaming, but the Akritas plan ...Legal...Are you insane.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir you have hit the nail right on the head...the "RoC" have to take concrete measures to bring the 2 communities together because at the moment all the TCs see and experience is Turkey paying for new roads, schools, infrastructure, government salaries etc and the GC leadership blocking flights, direct mail , trade and even friendly football matches. The negative impact of these GC policies are evident today. The current leadership in the south has proven that if re-elected it will do as much as they did in the last 5 years which is nothing. In order to kick start a solution bold measures are necessary from a GC leadership with vision and desire that can stimulate the TC side in action but obviously the desire is not evident as the GCs have 90% of what they wanti their only problem is the refugees and more wealth in the long run.

VP...As far as I am concerned Papadopoulos has been a disappointment.
He has failed to capitalise on Denktash's demise,and allowed Turkey to portray him as the new MR NO...He is no fool.So I can only imagine he knows exactly what he is doing. He is on record for saying he prefers the status quo to any forced agreement. That means he prefers Partition to any kind of solution which falls short of his expectations.Perhaps he is playing politics. Or perhaps he is really able to read the mood of his voters. I am disappointed because his "crush through or crush" tactics is only playing into the hands of Turkey and those on the North who are happy to milk the status quo dry. There is no doubt in my mind that he will crush rather than crush through.Eventually some other more pragmatic GC leader will sign an agreement that would be more damaging to all Cypriots,and certainly not be in the interests of the forces of reunification...Papadopoulos will go down in history as the President who presided over the final division of Cyprus. Denktash will go down in history as the man who planted the seeds of division back in the 50s ,and Talat will go down in history as the man who led the TCs to selfextermination... Hope all this is warming your heart VP...Because my heart is broken...

How would you have dealt witrh Makarios and reece at the time Bir???

I would pour super glue on the TC chairs in the Cyprus government of 63,sit on them,and do not get up... Makarios's proposals were just that.Proposals. Some of them were quiet good for the smoother running of the state affairs...There was no reason for the TCs to walk out of government,and go and sulk in one corner. Unless of course that was what they wanted to do,and were just waiting for the right trigger.
Sure Makarios was trying to water down some of the generous concessions given to the TCs...But he couldn't change anything without the agreement of his VP...(Not viewpoint!!!!) I would've simply come back with my own proposals and keep arguing my points sensibly and logically...The Republic would've survived that small crises and gone on to bigger and better things...

Do you honestly think that would have been possible with the sound of gunfire and bombs outside. I can just see undernourished and dishevelled MPs coming out of the enclaves and travelling safely to work and begging for food and water for their people. Makarios' response would have been ??????????

Zan...i honestly believe that if there was goodwill on both sides things would not have gotten out of hand like they did. There was a legal state being run together by both sides according a constitution which favoured the TCs greatly...There was a joint police force and a joint jandarme.
Turkey and Greece had their token soldiers there...It was not that the security forces were out killing people...some paramilitias on both sides were stirring ethnic troubles for sure...But the security forces wouldve been able to deal with it,had the government stayed intact...Makarios could not have openly kicked the TCs out of his government had they not walked away. Both sides had their own agendas. The Akritas plan tells us what the GC agenda was...An essentially political and legal struggle to achieve Enosis. What we TCs had never been told was the TC agenda...That was to stir up enough trouble to force Turkey to intervene,invade and achieve Taksim...unlike what some people believe in this Forum,the Taksim idea had not originated in Turkey but in Cyprus.Turkey was very relactant to get involved...Why do you think it took them 11 years and a lot of provocation from both sides to come in???
TMT's real aim was to force Turkey's hand to invade whatever the cost...
And invade they did,with a lot of Greek junta and Eoka help...But we can't sweep our role in this under the carpet and blame everything on Makarios..

A hell of a lot of contradictions in there Bir...I can't believe you wrote this. Are you just tired?

I have to highlight, in words, just one point because the rest speaks for it self Whether again you are being deliberate or are just tired and confused;You write about the Akritas plan as if that too was legal and just. It may have been established that ENOSIS and the dream of ENOSIS might have been legal, after all you cannot stop people dreaming, but the Akritas plan ...Legal...Are you insane.

No ,no....you got the wrong end of the stick Zan...and i admit I didn't express myself very clearly...I didn't mean the Akritas Plan was legal....
I meant that in the Akritas plan the aim was meant to be achieved by political and legal manouvers instead of force of arms etc...Of course it was not legal...In fact i think it was high treason...To try to undermine the legitimate and sovereign republic by underhanded methods was high treason.I am on record for saying that in my opinion there is a case for bringing charges against Papadopoulos even now...And no,I am not insane...But tired,perhaps,most of the time...

[zan]

Bir you have hit the nail right on the head...the "RoC" have to take concrete measures to bring the 2 communities together because at the moment all the TCs see and experience is Turkey paying for new roads, schools, infrastructure, government salaries etc and the GC leadership blocking flights, direct mail , trade and even friendly football matches. The negative impact of these GC policies are evident today. The current leadership in the south has proven that if re-elected it will do as much as they did in the last 5 years which is nothing. In order to kick start a solution bold measures are necessary from a GC leadership with vision and desire that can stimulate the TC side in action but obviously the desire is not evident as the GCs have 90% of what they wanti their only problem is the refugees and more wealth in the long run.

VP...As far as I am concerned Papadopoulos has been a disappointment.
He has failed to capitalise on Denktash's demise,and allowed Turkey to portray him as the new MR NO...He is no fool.So I can only imagine he knows exactly what he is doing. He is on record for saying he prefers the status quo to any forced agreement. That means he prefers Partition to any kind of solution which falls short of his expectations.Perhaps he is playing politics. Or perhaps he is really able to read the mood of his voters. I am disappointed because his "crush through or crush" tactics is only playing into the hands of Turkey and those on the North who are happy to milk the status quo dry. There is no doubt in my mind that he will crush rather than crush through.Eventually some other more pragmatic GC leader will sign an agreement that would be more damaging to all Cypriots,and certainly not be in the interests of the forces of reunification...Papadopoulos will go down in history as the President who presided over the final division of Cyprus. Denktash will go down in history as the man who planted the seeds of division back in the 50s ,and Talat will go down in history as the man who led the TCs to selfextermination... Hope all this is warming your heart VP...Because my heart is broken...

How would you have dealt witrh Makarios and reece at the time Bir???

I would pour super glue on the TC chairs in the Cyprus government of 63,sit on them,and do not get up... Makarios's proposals were just that.Proposals. Some of them were quiet good for the smoother running of the state affairs...There was no reason for the TCs to walk out of government,and go and sulk in one corner. Unless of course that was what they wanted to do,and were just waiting for the right trigger.
Sure Makarios was trying to water down some of the generous concessions given to the TCs...But he couldn't change anything without the agreement of his VP...(Not viewpoint!!!!) I would've simply come back with my own proposals and keep arguing my points sensibly and logically...The Republic would've survived that small crises and gone on to bigger and better things...

Do you honestly think that would have been possible with the sound of gunfire and bombs outside. I can just see undernourished and dishevelled MPs coming out of the enclaves and travelling safely to work and begging for food and water for their people. Makarios' response would have been ??????????

Zan...i honestly believe that if there was goodwill on both sides things would not have gotten out of hand like they did. There was a legal state being run together by both sides according a constitution which favoured the TCs greatly...There was a joint police force and a joint jandarme.
Turkey and Greece had their token soldiers there...It was not that the security forces were out killing people...some paramilitias on both sides were stirring ethnic troubles for sure...But the security forces wouldve been able to deal with it,had the government stayed intact...Makarios could not have openly kicked the TCs out of his government had they not walked away. Both sides had their own agendas. The Akritas plan tells us what the GC agenda was...An essentially political and legal struggle to achieve Enosis. What we TCs had never been told was the TC agenda...That was to stir up enough trouble to force Turkey to intervene,invade and achieve Taksim...unlike what some people believe in this Forum,the Taksim idea had not originated in Turkey but in Cyprus.Turkey was very relactant to get involved...Why do you think it took them 11 years and a lot of provocation from both sides to come in???
TMT's real aim was to force Turkey's hand to invade whatever the cost...
And invade they did,with a lot of Greek junta and Eoka help...But we can't sweep our role in this under the carpet and blame everything on Makarios..

A hell of a lot of contradictions in there Bir...I can't believe you wrote this. Are you just tired?

I have to highlight, in words, just one point because the rest speaks for it self Whether again you are being deliberate or are just tired and confused;You write about the Akritas plan as if that too was legal and just. It may have been established that ENOSIS and the dream of ENOSIS might have been legal, after all you cannot stop people dreaming, but the Akritas plan ...Legal...Are you insane.

No ,no....you got the wrong end of the stick Zan...and i admit I didn't express myself very clearly...I didn't mean the Akritas Plan was legal....
I meant that in the Akritas plan the aim was meant to be achieved by political and legal manouvers instead of force of arms etc...Of course it was not legal...In fact i think it was high treason...To try to undermine the legitimate and sovereign republic by underhanded methods was high treason.I am on record for saying that in my opinion there is a case for bringing charges against Papadopoulos even now...And no,I am not insane...But tired,perhaps,most of the time...

Good thing I gave you the option then...

[Pyrpolizer]

Bir

I am afraid Papadopoulos is failing to take advantage of this situation,and move to implement some measures to make it easier for TCs to feel part of the Republic...The only way to prevent partition now is for enough TCs to move to the South and demand their political rights under the 1960 constitution,and put pressure on Talat and Turkey to come to the party...That won't happen as long as Papadopoulos is in power...Qai sera sera...

Yes Bir you are very right Papadopoulos is not taking advantage on this matter. Shame a diverse Cyprus would be such a benefit to future generations and current world also. What measure are you sugesting Bir would be interested to hear.

Oh you know I think TC's ought bloody well do move south, it would be so hilarious really to see the RoC cope. but what doesn't kill you strengthens you they say It would be awsome. I think it would be fantastic for the 1960's consitution to be demanded by TC's.

Sadly you are right, Papadopoulos for whatever reason is not going to make it happen.

The biggest argument the Partitionists have on the TC side is that the GCs do not want to share power with TCs. They only want to assimilate and make them extinct. So...I would begin by removing all symbols which irritate the TCs...Like the Greek flags and the Greek national anthem.
I would make Turkish truly the other official language in the Republic...I would make studying Turkish (and Greek of course) language compulsory in all primary schools.(Notwithstanding the diffculties of finding qualified teachers to teach Turkish -they can always find them in Turkey where there are many university graduates doing unskilled work,who would only love to be trained as Turkish language teachers). Establish a Multicultural Affairs Commission to oversee the resettlement of TCs in the South,providing information officers/interpreters/community liaison officers etc.Then declare to the world that the 1960 constitution would be fully implemented,and invite the TCs to come and resettle in the Republic and participate fully in the running of the state...Especially targetting the TCs in the diaspora who might be willing to return home under improved conditions.After an interim period hold general elections as specified in the constitution and elect TC reps and ministers and Vice President to fill all the empty position...Then watch the international reaction,and the pressure on Turkey to honour her responsibility under the guarantee powers,and withdraw all her troops minus 650 which is allowed under the 60 agreement...How long do you think it would be before Turkey tells Talat to dismantle his pariah state and offer him and other ardent partitionists political assylum in Turkey....???

Excellent post.
The first thing Papadopoulos or any other president must do is employ TC advisors like you Birkibrisli. And take their advices seriously.

[Chimera]

All Stand please....


We knew thee of old,
Oh, divinely restored,
By the light of thine eyes
And the light of thy Sword.

From the graves of our slain
Shall thy valour prevail
As we greet thee again-
Hail, Liberty! Hail

etc for another 156 verses of sanity restoring lyrics.

[zan]

All Stand please....


We knew thee of old,
Oh, divinely restored,
By the light of thine eyes
And the light of thy Sword.

From the graves of our slain
Shall thy valour prevail
As we greet thee again-
Hail, Liberty! Hail

etc for another 156 verses of sanity restoring lyrics.

Saw an old guy with a dirty beard and clothes standing on a box in the high street doing the same thing. I think he was as sane as you...


By the way...How is the life outside of the Forum going? Have you now resorted to inviting your friends round to watch you on the Net. If not, they must miss you greatly.

[Chimera]

Yes, Zan. I told them all about you, and they couldn't believe you were for real.

So they all came round to scan over your posts, and guess what, now they know you aren't for real.

You are the very model of a modern major general

[BirKibrisli]

Bir

I am afraid Papadopoulos is failing to take advantage of this situation,and move to implement some measures to make it easier for TCs to feel part of the Republic...The only way to prevent partition now is for enough TCs to move to the South and demand their political rights under the 1960 constitution,and put pressure on Talat and Turkey to come to the party...That won't happen as long as Papadopoulos is in power...Qai sera sera...

Yes Bir you are very right Papadopoulos is not taking advantage on this matter. Shame a diverse Cyprus would be such a benefit to future generations and current world also. What measure are you sugesting Bir would be interested to hear.

Oh you know I think TC's ought bloody well do move south, it would be so hilarious really to see the RoC cope. but what doesn't kill you strengthens you they say It would be awsome. I think it would be fantastic for the 1960's consitution to be demanded by TC's.

Sadly you are right, Papadopoulos for whatever reason is not going to make it happen.

The biggest argument the Partitionists have on the TC side is that the GCs do not want to share power with TCs. They only want to assimilate and make them extinct. So...I would begin by removing all symbols which irritate the TCs...Like the Greek flags and the Greek national anthem.
I would make Turkish truly the other official language in the Republic...I would make studying Turkish (and Greek of course) language compulsory in all primary schools.(Notwithstanding the diffculties of finding qualified teachers to teach Turkish -they can always find them in Turkey where there are many university graduates doing unskilled work,who would only love to be trained as Turkish language teachers). Establish a Multicultural Affairs Commission to oversee the resettlement of TCs in the South,providing information officers/interpreters/community liaison officers etc.Then declare to the world that the 1960 constitution would be fully implemented,and invite the TCs to come and resettle in the Republic and participate fully in the running of the state...Especially targetting the TCs in the diaspora who might be willing to return home under improved conditions.After an interim period hold general elections as specified in the constitution and elect TC reps and ministers and Vice President to fill all the empty position...Then watch the international reaction,and the pressure on Turkey to honour her responsibility under the guarantee powers,and withdraw all her troops minus 650 which is allowed under the 60 agreement...How long do you think it would be before Turkey tells Talat to dismantle his pariah state and offer him and other ardent partitionists political assylum in Turkey....???

Excellent post.
The first thing Papadopoulos or any other president must do is employ TC advisors like you Birkibrisli. And take their advices seriously.

Thank you,Pyro...
If papadopoulos is interested I am available for employement right now...
And I will do it for no payment.Just one or two statues of my good self after the solution will suffice..