Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Can we have some links to the whole reports please? Because as usual you only post the tiny bits that suit you, and you don't even give a link to the source. If a report would say 10 things against you, and 1 against us, then you would post just that 1 and omit the other 10, making it sound as if we were the guilty ones.

Yes, after the conflict started because TCs refused to even discuss the proposals and they withdrew from the goverment and started to fight against it, then both sides committed crimes and wrong doings. So stop trying to make it sound as if the inter communal conflict can be blamed exclusively on GCs.

[Viewpoint]

Can we have some links to the whole reports please? Because as usual you only post the tiny bits that suit you, and you don't even give a link to the source. If a report would say 10 things against you, and 1 against us, then you would post just that 1 and omit the other 10, making it sound as if we were the guilty ones.

Yes, after the conflict started because TCs refused to even discuss the proposals and they withdrew from the goverment and started to fight against it, then both sides committed crimes and wrong doings. So stop trying to make it sound as if the inter communal conflict can be blamed exclusively on GCs.

Did you not know it was the GCs that did not adhere to a supreme court judgement about local muicipality expenditure, pushing the TCs out of government and ulitmately having to accept Aktritas if they wanted to return to their rightful place. It has always been a GC policy to push the TC out the "RoC" and have a pure GC run state for GCs.

[Piratis]

VP, the TCs left when Makarios proposed the 13 points. Who ever asked from TCs to accept "Akritas"? Have you been dreaming again?

The aim of the TCs was/is partition, so stop trying to blame the whole situation on GCs.

[Viewpoint]

VP, the TCs left when Makarios proposed the 13 points. Who ever asked from TCs to accept "Akritas"? Have you been dreaming again?

The aim of the TCs was/is partition, so stop trying to blame the whole situation on GCs.

I wouldnt expect anything else from you Piratis so you continue with your beliefs but I would like to ask you which came first Enosis or Taksim? This answer will say more about than anything else.

[Piratis]

Of course enosis came first. The Cypriot people tried to revolt against the Ottomans at the same time all other Greeks did, in order to liberate the Greek territories from the Ottoman rule. This is what happened:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

So of course at that time you didn't want taksim (partition) since you controlled the whole island against the will of the great majority of Cypriots, who you butchered every time they tried to revolt.

Union with Greece was in fact our legitimate right, as it is defined by the resolution about decolonization which clearly states that "integration into an independent State" is one of the legitimate options for a territory being decolonized, if this is what the population of the territory chooses via democratic means.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

On the other hand, taksim, which involves the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of people, has never been your legitimate right.

Therefore our legitimate demand could not have been an excuse to start crimes against us and demand our ethnic cleansing from our homeland.

[BirKibrisli]

I don't really have any reliable source of casualty numbers,but logic dictates that the invading forced should take higher casualties.They are the aggressors, and open and vulnerable to return fire from well entrenched defensive positions..

Your theory is valid when there's a defense to confront the invader but that was NOT the case in July 1974 for reasons well known to most which I can't be bothered repeating.

Just for the infomation of you guys: The Turkish army NEVER announced their casualties.
Rumors after 1974 say they had tremendous losses, much more than us.

Searching on the internet one may find all sorts of numbers. From 800 to 3000. But nothing confirmed.

I was under the impression that Cyprus was well defended in 1974,especially the part where the major assault took place.The Terrain of Besparmak/Pendadaklos mountains made it ideal for the defence.I have read many accounts in the past how Turkey made a huge mistake invading from Kyrenia and took a lot of casualties unnecessarily. There are also admissions that Turkish planes had sunk two of their own warships by mistake...Also unconfirmed reports that in the confusion of the first wave of attacks Turkish soldiers killed many TC fighters mistaking them for GC fighters...I would be interested to hear from others who might've heard similar stories...

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis...the GCs will have to accept the responsibility for insisting on Enosis during the 50s...and VP...the TC will have to accept the responsibility for working equally as hard to achieve Taksim

Bir, of course we accept the we insisted on enosis during the 50s. You can say that insisting on it was a mistake, but it was definitely not a crime, since enosis was our legitimate right which was denied to us by force.
On the other hand, taksim, is something that involves the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of Cypriots. It was not just a mistake, the whole cause of taksim was/is a criminal cause. So I hope you accept the difference between a possible policy mistake and a crime.

Piratis can afford to sit back and repeat his numbers and his apportioning of the blame,and his infexible stand on a solution because time is working for him...But what excuse do we have on the TC side????????Except perhaps a deep seated, mass self-extermination instict???

Bir, I repeat that the only reason I give the numbers is because some people in here are trying to re-write history in their own liking in order to excuse illegalities of today. If some people want to look in the past and appropriate blame, then shouldn't this appropriation be done in the right way based on the all true historical facts?
Personally I said many times that we should leave the past behind, solve the problem that exists today, forgive each other, and then finally have an independent, democratic Cyprus without racist discriminations like all the other in EU.

Piratis...I accept the notion that Enosis was a legitimate aspiration of the majority of Cypriots. It was not a crime,but a big mistake...The mistake was compounded because no allowances were made for the feelings of the minorities,especially the TCs...I don't think the GCs appreciated in the past,or even today,the extend of the fear and mistrust created in the TCs towards such eventuality.Had the Enosis dream succeeded,most TCs would've left Cyprus,and that would've amounted to ethnic cleansing as well,albeit indirectly...I am talking about the feelings created by the tragic events at the time,and the nationalsit indocrination behind the scenes of course...given the history of Cyprus and the historical Greco-Turkish animosity,insisting on Enosis was in affect a declaration of war on the TCs...This is what some people still fail to comprehend...And this lies at the heart of those TCs who fail to realise that such a declaration of war does not exist any more...But like everything else in this bloody conflict truths get swept under the carpet,only to surface in individual and mass subconsciousness of the people.
My objection to the repetition of the numbers and the blame game is simply because it stops us from going forward,and looking at the problem with fresh eyes. Somebody has to begin and set the trend of not repeating endlessly those facts that will inevitably increase fear and suspicion.Because you are an elder statesman on this forum I expect you to take the initiative. If we all just yawn and refrain from repeating those arguments,people will just stop using them and get on with talking about what is happening today...Am I being too optimistic????

[Kikapu]

Also unconfirmed reports that in the confusion of the first wave of attacks Turkish soldiers killed many TC fighters mistaking them for GC fighters......

I think the Americans have invented a phrase for this, "Friendly Fire", since they have been killing their own and allies at large numbers at certain situations when the "shit hits the fan".

Friendly Fire my ass. When these guys go into action, I believe their killing instincts takes over in what they were trained for and they shoot first and ask questions later. As one American General once answered a woman's question that the military was too brutal, in which he said "Ma'am, these soldiers are trained to kill".

[Viewpoint]

Of course enosis came first. The Cypriot people tried to revolt against the Ottomans at the same time all other Greeks did, in order to liberate the Greek territories from the Ottoman rule. This is what happened:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

So of course at that time you didn't want taksim (partition) since you controlled the whole island against the will of the great majority of Cypriots, who you butchered every time they tried to revolt.

Union with Greece was in fact our legitimate right, as it is defined by the resolution about decolonization which clearly states that "integration into an independent State" is one of the legitimate options for a territory being decolonized, if this is what the population of the territory chooses via democratic means.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

On the other hand, taksim, which involves the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of people, has never been your legitimate right.

Therefore our legitimate demand could not have been an excuse to start crimes against us and demand our ethnic cleansing from our homeland.

In times of war when all hell is let loose there are no legalities or reasoning, there is only fear fuelling mayhem. The people that allowed the war to happen or gave the bigger powers the opportunity to intervene due their blinded selfish and relentless persuit towards their hidden agendas without taking into account a sizable minority who just did not want to become Greek.

[Kikapu]

In times of war when all hell is let loose there are no legalities or reasoning,.

This is absolute Rubbish. There are always legalities. The only question is, are they willing to be observe and for those who commit war crimes should be held responsible in the court of law.

War is not an excuse to commit crimes.