Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

By the way I forgot to tell you! One of my favourite subjects is Mathematics... I suggest a doze of crash-course in basic Maths will help your in future arguments my friend

I wouldn't have a problem if you were showing off AND making sense but unfortunately you just keep making a dork of yourself!

There is only ONE authority when it comes to land in Cyprus and that is none other than the Department of Lands and Surveys which have been keeping records since taking over what the British first started,

Land Ownership in Cyprus by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys
(Refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987)

I thought you were quiet for too long - how did I know you were about to dive in at first opportunity to prove yourself to me! OK I am impressed son! (well almost)

We are talking about figures in 1960-1963, you are referring to what the GC ministers said in 1987! What kind of gibberish is that! Give me a link to something from an independent source that shows the land ownership for 1960-1963 and I might even respect you for it - endaksi re gumbaro?
And what with Armenian and Maronite Cypriots? What was the actual GC land?

Also where is EVKAF or Vakiflar property gone?

[Get Real!]

Here's their official site...

Department of Lands and Surveys
http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/dls/dls.nsf/d ... enDocument


Check this out...

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

The Department of Lands and Surveys of Cyprus started its operations in the year 1858 and is considered to be the oldest governmental department of the public sector in Cyprus.

http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/dls/dls.nsf/d ... enDocument

[Pyrpolizer]

BigOz,

I think Kifeas was very clear on what he referred to as 12.5%. Anyway I am glad we both passed our math exams, given the data we used. Otherwise we would both have to study all summer.

I would be EXTREMELY interested to see your data. I 've personally searched the matter and found nothing that substantiates the claim the TCs were owners of 30% of Cyprus land. Evkaf showed some letters from pashas in the past in Arabic script saying for example a whole area is given to xxx "Kadi " or hoja, but that's about it... And these documents are 400 years old.How many decendents that hoja had, how was the property split which was sold etc no evidence. If we go like that then we could perhaps go 1000 years back and claim the whole of Pentadaktylos mountain range belongs to Regeana.

The only valid document imo is the lands registry the British (made in 1948) Part of that, i mean the one that concerns the properties in the North IS IN THE POSSESSION OF DENKTASH!!!! Think about it. I repeat:IS IN THE POSSESSION OF DENKTASH!!!!

[Pyrpolizer]

I don't really have any reliable source of casualty numbers,but logic dictates that the invading forced should take higher casualties.They are the aggressors, and open and vulnerable to return fire from well entrenched defensive positions..

Your theory is valid when there's a defense to confront the invader but that was NOT the case in July 1974 for reasons well known to most which I can't be bothered repeating.

Just for the infomation of you guys: The Turkish army NEVER announced their casualties.
Rumors after 1974 say they had tremendous losses, much more than us.

Searching on the internet one may find all sorts of numbers. From 800 to 3000. But nothing confirmed.

[bigOz]

BigOz,

I think Kifeas was very clear on what he referred to as 12.5%. Anyway I am glad we both passed our math exams, given the data we used. Otherwise we would both have to study all summer.

I would be EXTREMELY interested to see your data. I 've personally searched the matter and found nothing that substantiates the claim the TCs were owners of 30% of Cyprus land. Evkaf showed some letters from pashas in the past in Arabic script saying for example a whole area is given to xxx "Kadi " or hoja, but that's about it... And these documents are 400 years old.How many decendents that hoja had, how was the property split which was sold etc no evidence. If we go like that then we could perhaps go 1000 years back and claim the whole of Pentadaktylos mountain range belongs to Regeana.

The only valid document imo is the lands registry the British (made in 1948) Part of that, i mean the one that concerns the properties in the North IS IN THE POSSESSION OF DENKTASH!!!! Think about it. I repeat:IS IN THE POSSESSION OF DENKTASH!!!!

Thanks P!
But the truth remains Get real is as evasive and dishonest as ever because he believe he can get away with it by undermining my abilities or interpreting them as "boasting" - BIG MISTAKE!

I knew all along what his source for the quoted percentages in his original post was. None of the two links he gave to me about the Dept of Land Survey quotes those percentages! This is where he got his information from: http://www.greece.org/cyprus/Maps.htm
compare what it says on this page with what GR quoted without a link:

Land Ownership by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source:Department of Lands and Surveys (refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987.

identical eh? Check out the source: "greece.org". In fact all this page talks about is the land ownership as it stood during 1974 invasion! Pyrpolizer, I hope you understand where I am coming from - clearly he intentionally avoided his real source because he himself is aware it would not be very credible. The figures may be right or wrong, and I have no real proof for either at this time but I will look into it in more detail, now that there is a void in the issue. By reliable documentation, I refer to documents that existed pre 1963 of which the British authorities must have copies of.

If you are saying that the necessary paperwork that RoC had and would have shown conclusive evidence of who owned what land in detail is in TRNC, then they are just as trustworthy as the ones in RoC Dept of Lands and Surveys! Trust me, if there are other sources, I'll find them...

For now, I suggest GR sticks to personal insults and avoids being so devious (as usual) in his haste to run to Kifeas' aid (as always)...

[Pyrpolizer]

Here are some more links bigOz.The first 2 seem independent

http://reference.allrefer.com/country-g ... rus97.html
http://reference.allrefer.com/country-g ... rus74.html
http://agrino.org/humrights/proposals/77prpsal.html

[Pyrpolizer]

BigOz, the lands registry is a separate file for each and every property. It's like a history book for every piece of land. It was formed in 1948. The ones in the hands of Denktash include all transactions. You are free to check any property ownership even from 1948.

Btw I really doubt the British have copies. No Xerox machines in 1948-1974 no?

[denizaksulu]

[quote="Piratis"][quote="Viewpoint"]Piratis[quote]Viewpoint wrote:
Who agrees with the thought that 1960 was an opportunity missed to create a Cypriot people? A chance to wipe the slate cleanand rule ourselves?


Cypriot people existed for 1000s of years. If TCs are part of the Cypriot people or some other "people" thats questionable and mostly up to them.

Here is a 2000 year old coin with the inscription "?????? ???????" ("Common to all Cypriots").



1960 could have been a chance to make a new start if it had created a truly independent, democratic state and the state had the power to fight and destroy those paramilitaries that didn't want the state to succeed because they had other aims which were sponsored by outsiders.

That didn't happen, and it is not a surprise since the 1960 constitution was not a result of a democratic process among Cypriots, but was forced on us by foreigners.[/quote]


Are you referring to the constitiution you cling onto today? appears to be invaluable in 2007 is that because it has the TC element removed? wasnt it you that said its the only agreement we have and that TCs should return to it? how long will it take you to regurgitate Akritas 2 and run to the EU begging for changes to water down TCs rights.[/quote]

The fact that the British gave you a lot with that constitution doesn't mean you have any right to illegaly perform ethnic cleansing or take illegally even more on our loss.
Those agreements are in fact the only legal thing that we have, and I support legality even though those agreements are far from fair. However those agreements are almost 5 decades old. Therefore with [b]legal[/b] means and following the EU aquis, yes I would want changes that would make that constitution more democratic and more in line with that exists in other EU countries. Nothing wrong with that.[/quote]


Hello my friend the gramm...sorry, Piratis. At least you agree that the Cyprus Constitution needs changing, but I sincerely hope that you will sit side by side with us TC's and thrash it out by peaceful means, and not the tactics used in 1963.
Regards
DA

[Piratis]

And what are the "tactics used in 1963" denizaksulu? Since when it is illegal to propose changes to the constitution?

It is you that you have to review your tactics, since apparently you want to get your way by force, instead by legal and democratic means.

[Murataga]

And what are the "tactics used in 1963" denizaksulu? Since when it is illegal to propose changes to the constitution?

It is you that you have to review your tactics, since apparently you want to get your way by force, instead by legal and democratic means.

You tell us about them...

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/8286 of December 1967

"126. When disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued in the first part of 1964, thousands of Turkish Cypriots fled from their homes, taking with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in what they considered to be safer Turkish Cypriot villages and areas.
The refusal of the Greek Cypriot authorities to allow the Turkish Cypriot refugees to return to their homes in conditions of safety, effectively frusturated persistent Turkish efforts to rehabilitate them. They also obstructed attempts to improve their living conditions"

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/6426 of June 1965

"104. The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous. These include restrictions on the freedom of movement of civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees."

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/5950 of September 1964

"180. UNIFCYP carried out a detailed survery of all damage to properties throughout the island during the disturbances, including the Tyllria fighting. It shows that in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2000 others have suffered damage from looting. ... In many Turkish villages, crowded by the arrival of displaced persons, there is an acute shortage of medical facilities."

There is another one that criticizes the GC authorities for refusing to employ TCs in the government with the excuse of not having settled the "conflict", however I wasn`t able to locate that one right now. There re many others like this, these are the few I have been able to compile.