Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

And I am not surprised

[BirKibrisli]

Wars are not picnics,and it is no surprise there were considerable numbers of casualties in this particular tragedy...I don't really have any reliable source of casualty numbers,but logic dictates that the invading forced should take higher casualties.They are the aggressors, and open and vulnerable to return fire from well entrenched defensive positions...But given that there were a lot of bunglings and stuff ups on both sides,God only knows (figuratively speaking!) the real situation...
But lets stop dwelling on that people...And lets address the real issues confronting us today...

Piratis...the GCs will have to accept the responsibility for insisting on Enosis during the 50s...and VP...the TC will have to accept the responsibility for working equally as hard to achieve Taksim...And both sides will have to accept they were duped by the nationalist arguments,and shot themselves in the foot when it came to independence...The biggest mistake the TCs have committed was walking away from the Republic in 1964,and putting too much trust in Turkey's intentions.We now stare the bitter truth in the face: Turkey was more concerned about her own military and strategic interests than protecting the TCs from real or imaginary massacres...I have come to the conclusion that TCs are the biggest losers in this conflict.The GCs have found their feet,they run their own relatively prosperous country,and are the masters of thier own soverign and independent state which is now taking her place amongst the proud nations of the European Union...After 50 odd years of struggle what have the TCs achieved????They are the second class citizens of a pariah state,ruled by a Turkish governor (read the Turkish Ambassador) and kept in check by the commander of the Turkish Forces in Cyprus.Our numbers are dwindling,we are already a minority,and our right to self determination is fast evaporating trough the roof of this comi-tragedy of our own making...No amount of fancy footwork by bigOz or wishful thinking by Zan or regurgitating by VP can change these facts...As TCs we have two options left...Demand our rights in the 1960 constitution and throw our weight behind the GCs in the effort to get Turkey off our backs...Or totally capitulate to Turkish rule and prepare to mass immigrate withing 20 years to Turkey when the EU chickens will come to roost...Piratis can afford to sit back and repeat his numbers and his apportioning of the blame,and his infexible stand on a solution because time is working for him...But what excuse do we have on the TC side????????Except perhaps a deep seated, mass self-extermination instict???

[Kifeas]

I was also there during the war - you are not being truthful again GR! Never mind what the American senate at the time stated - they were very disappointed and bitter about Turkiye using NATO forces without the permission of NATO command. Further annoyed by Ecevit's rebellious behaviour in not consulting them about Turkiye's military activities in the area. Add to that the very strong Greek lobby in America at the time and one can understand their reaction...

There had been substantial Greek tanks and armoured forces in the area as quoted to you in my old posts. If you do not believe me, next time you are in Kyrenia, visit the military museum to its West which has a very small collection of what was left behind. Just to remind you: At 05:30 Saturday 20 July 1974 the Turkish air-force bombed and destroyed the 256 Infantry Regiment of the Cyprus National Guard at Glykiotissa, the 190 Light Artillery Regiment at Acheropoiitos Greek Orthodox Monastery, the 182 Heavy Artillery Regiment of Bosporos, as well as all the military installations along the Kyrenia northern coastline at Panagra.

The Turkish paratroopers were not "helplessly swinging in the air". It was the biggest airbourne assault since WW2, using not just aircraft but dozens of helicopters that ferried troops non-stop. No firepower from the Greek mainland army or the National guard was going to stop them in mid-air.

The Turkish invasion foolishly took place in a well protected coast line 5 miles west of Kyrenia, not expecting local resistance because they declared their enemy as the EOKA + Greek mainland forces. Concrete Heavy machine gun pillar boxes faced them on the main beach they chose to land. They were butchered in their hundreds before they reached dry land - I'll try and get the exact figure, but I believe it was in fact well over 1000 soldiers dead during the initial landings. From then on they were ruthlessly at war with anything that was not TC on the island!

NAPALM bombs were used during the bombings of military installations of the Cyprus National Guard, such as the military camps of Athalassa in Nicosia. No such bombs were used on civilians but bombing of anti-aircraft
installations positioned on top of the Mental Hospital in Nicosia (I forgot its name now) and some schools resulted in the destruction of these buildings as well. Fort example, GC propaganda talks of Monasteries being bombed, but what they don't tell people is that the monastery was in fact used as a military camp by the GC National Guard (see 2nd paragraph above).

Having taken the full impact of the initial invasion force and bombing NOT A SINGLE HOUSE OR A BUILDING IN KYRENIA TOOK A HIT FROM ANY AIRCRAFT, WARSHIP, TANK OR MORTAR FIRE! The villages all around Kyrenia shared the same faith. Contrary to what many GC sites would say, the Turkish military attacks were carefully aimed at military positions, and that included buildings or constructions occupied by military for whatever reason. Had the Turkish military been half as barbarous and ruthless as portrayed by many fanatics, there would have been well over 100,000 GC deaths - not only in the invaded area but by the bombardment of areas from air well into South (which was within their easy reach).

Remember, at the time the whole island was at their mercy, especially after the annihilation of mainland Greek and National Guard troops that stood in their way. NO ONE STOPPED THEM ALONG THE 1/3 LINE OF THE ISLAND - they could have gone on and captured 50% or even 60 % within the next 48 hours. The reason they stopped where they did was very clear in the message passed on at the time "When it was created, TCs owned the legal deeds to around third of the land in the Republic, this is where we stop!".

As I said before, who knows whether any GC would have been killed during the invasion if there was no resistance to the initial invasion which cost the lives of so many Turkish soldiers before they even set foot on the island. In fact I'll go further than that and say, probably there would have been no casualties whatsoever resulting from such an action, had the British accepted Ecevit's offer for a joint operation as guarantor powers - they preferred the safety of their barracks throughout the whole ordeal. Most likely, the GCs would have trusted a joint operation more and not resisted - until the elected president and RoC government was reinstated.

Alas, we cannot turn the clock back, so we'll have to deal with it!

Of all that you have mentioned above, the biggest nonsense is the part I have underlined! In 1960, the TCs (including Evkaf) were the owners of only the 12.5% of the island's territory, or about 19% of the island's private land, which in Cyprus was /is around 65.7% of the island's territory! The remaining 24.3% is state land, including forests, rivers, roads, public buildings, lakes, etc.

[bigOz]

I was also there during the war - you are not being truthful again GR! Never mind what the American senate at the time stated - they were very disappointed and bitter about Turkiye using NATO forces without the permission of NATO command. Further annoyed by Ecevit's rebellious behaviour in not consulting them about Turkiye's military activities in the area. Add to that the very strong Greek lobby in America at the time and one can understand their reaction...

There had been substantial Greek tanks and armoured forces in the area as quoted to you in my old posts. If you do not believe me, next time you are in Kyrenia, visit the military museum to its West which has a very small collection of what was left behind. Just to remind you: At 05:30 Saturday 20 July 1974 the Turkish air-force bombed and destroyed the 256 Infantry Regiment of the Cyprus National Guard at Glykiotissa, the 190 Light Artillery Regiment at Acheropoiitos Greek Orthodox Monastery, the 182 Heavy Artillery Regiment of Bosporos, as well as all the military installations along the Kyrenia northern coastline at Panagra.

The Turkish paratroopers were not "helplessly swinging in the air". It was the biggest airbourne assault since WW2, using not just aircraft but dozens of helicopters that ferried troops non-stop. No firepower from the Greek mainland army or the National guard was going to stop them in mid-air.

The Turkish invasion foolishly took place in a well protected coast line 5 miles west of Kyrenia, not expecting local resistance because they declared their enemy as the EOKA + Greek mainland forces. Concrete Heavy machine gun pillar boxes faced them on the main beach they chose to land. They were butchered in their hundreds before they reached dry land - I'll try and get the exact figure, but I believe it was in fact well over 1000 soldiers dead during the initial landings. From then on they were ruthlessly at war with anything that was not TC on the island!

NAPALM bombs were used during the bombings of military installations of the Cyprus National Guard, such as the military camps of Athalassa in Nicosia. No such bombs were used on civilians but bombing of anti-aircraft
installations positioned on top of the Mental Hospital in Nicosia (I forgot its name now) and some schools resulted in the destruction of these buildings as well. Fort example, GC propaganda talks of Monasteries being bombed, but what they don't tell people is that the monastery was in fact used as a military camp by the GC National Guard (see 2nd paragraph above).

Having taken the full impact of the initial invasion force and bombing NOT A SINGLE HOUSE OR A BUILDING IN KYRENIA TOOK A HIT FROM ANY AIRCRAFT, WARSHIP, TANK OR MORTAR FIRE! The villages all around Kyrenia shared the same faith. Contrary to what many GC sites would say, the Turkish military attacks were carefully aimed at military positions, and that included buildings or constructions occupied by military for whatever reason. Had the Turkish military been half as barbarous and ruthless as portrayed by many fanatics, there would have been well over 100,000 GC deaths - not only in the invaded area but by the bombardment of areas from air well into South (which was within their easy reach).

Remember, at the time the whole island was at their mercy, especially after the annihilation of mainland Greek and National Guard troops that stood in their way. NO ONE STOPPED THEM ALONG THE 1/3 LINE OF THE ISLAND - they could have gone on and captured 50% or even 60 % within the next 48 hours. The reason they stopped where they did was very clear in the message passed on at the time "When it was created, TCs owned the legal deeds to around third of the land in the Republic, this is where we stop!".

As I said before, who knows whether any GC would have been killed during the invasion if there was no resistance to the initial invasion which cost the lives of so many Turkish soldiers before they even set foot on the island. In fact I'll go further than that and say, probably there would have been no casualties whatsoever resulting from such an action, had the British accepted Ecevit's offer for a joint operation as guarantor powers - they preferred the safety of their barracks throughout the whole ordeal. Most likely, the GCs would have trusted a joint operation more and not resisted - until the elected president and RoC government was reinstated.

Alas, we cannot turn the clock back, so we'll have to deal with it!

Of all that you have mentioned above, the biggest nonsense is the part I have underlined! In 1960, the TCs (including Evkaf) were the owners of only the 12.5% of the island's territory, or about 19% of the island's private land, which in Cyprus was /is around 65.7% of the island's territory! The remaining 24.3% is state land, including forests, rivers, roads, public buildings, lakes, etc.

You did not quote a source but - Thank you for proving my point Kifeas albeit calling it "nonsense". Your funny accusations will never seize to amaze me!

You yourself state 65% of Cyprus land was privately owned, of which 19% was TC owned! A simple mathematical calculation quickly shows Turkish owned land as around 29%. Not very far from what I said above: "around third of the land", is it? Knowing how TC and GC property has always been manipulated and reflected in GC ruled government archive statistics, I would rather stick to what everyone was well aware of in 1960s and maintain my claim!

By the way I forgot to tell you! One of my favourite subjects is Mathematics... I suggest a doze of crash-course in basic Maths will help your in future arguments my friend

[Pyrpolizer]

Here's a crash course:
a)19% of 65%=0.19X0.65=12.35%
b)19% of 35%=0.19X0.35=6.65%

a+b=19%

19%<29%<1/3<37%

[Piratis]

You yourself state 65% of Cyprus land was privately owned, of which 19% was TC owned! A simple mathematical calculation quickly shows Turkish owned land as around 29%. Not very far from what I said above: "around third of the land", is it? Knowing how TC and GC property has always been manipulated and reflected in GC ruled government archive statistics, I would rather stick to what everyone was well aware of in 1960s and maintain my claim!

By the way I forgot to tell you! One of my favourite subjects is Mathematics... I suggest a doze of crash-course in basic Maths will help your in future arguments my friend

As usual you guys are talking nonsense. Just like before that I said what is well known that the Turks had butchered 10s of thousands of Cypriots and then you guys were disputing this very well known fact by saying "prove it" but even when I gave you the proof, from sources of TCs and your American friends (who would never write something against you if it was not true), you continued to dispute it!!

In short, you guys are making up your own story, the one that suits you, and you don't give a damn about the truth. You just take the 1% of your suffering, erase the rest of the other 99% that doesn't suit you, and you are trying to present yourselves as the victims that now are justified to commit crimes and illegalities!! You think that if you keep insisting on your story, your story will become true somehow.

Anyways, I want to see if you "math experts" will insist that 19% of 65% is 29%. Actually I will not be surprised, since you are also disputing that an 18% of a population compared to the 82% is not a minority!

Personally I would suggest to the Turkish propagandists to stick disputing the historical facts, and maybe they will convince some people who have no clue about what really happened in Cyprus. But when they start disputing even basic maths, then who will they convince? Elementary school children?

[Piratis]

Piratis...the GCs will have to accept the responsibility for insisting on Enosis during the 50s...and VP...the TC will have to accept the responsibility for working equally as hard to achieve Taksim

Bir, of course we accept the we insisted on enosis during the 50s. You can say that insisting on it was a mistake, but it was definitely not a crime, since enosis was our legitimate right which was denied to us by force.
On the other hand, taksim, is something that involves the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of Cypriots. It was not just a mistake, the whole cause of taksim was/is a criminal cause. So I hope you accept the difference between a possible policy mistake and a crime.

Piratis can afford to sit back and repeat his numbers and his apportioning of the blame,and his infexible stand on a solution because time is working for him...But what excuse do we have on the TC side????????Except perhaps a deep seated, mass self-extermination instict???

Bir, I repeat that the only reason I give the numbers is because some people in here are trying to re-write history in their own liking in order to excuse illegalities of today. If some people want to look in the past and appropriate blame, then shouldn't this appropriation be done in the right way based on the all true historical facts?
Personally I said many times that we should leave the past behind, solve the problem that exists today, forgive each other, and then finally have an independent, democratic Cyprus without racist discriminations like all the other in EU.

[Get Real!]

I don't really have any reliable source of casualty numbers,but logic dictates that the invading forced should take higher casualties.They are the aggressors, and open and vulnerable to return fire from well entrenched defensive positions..

Your theory is valid when there's a defense to confront the invader but that was NOT the case in July 1974 for reasons well known to most which I can't be bothered repeating.

[bigOz]

Here's a crash course:
a)19% of 65%=0.19X0.65=12.35%
b)19% of 35%=0.19X0.35=6.65%

a+b=19%

19%<29%<1/3<37%

Nice try P! Also 19% of 40% + 19% of 60% = 19%
just like, 19% of 50% + 19% of 50% =19%
or 19% of 10% + 19% of 90% = 19%

I thought P stood for Pyrpolizer and not Pythagoras

I am well aware of what your calculation states P, but my interpretation is that 65% of Cyprus was private property, 19% of Cyprus belonged to TCs as private property. I did not include the state property of your calculation in (b) above since the 19% quoted by K was referred to as "private property" an not as made up of private and state property! If 65% was private land owned by GCs and TCs, and 19% of Cyprus was land privately owned by TCs, this means:

19 of 65 (%) belonged to TCs, which in percentage terms would yield:

16/65 x 100 = 29.230769 % (recurring).

But if we are going to disagree on this, and GCs are now claiming TCs owned only 12% in terms of private land private land, I shall go and do more research and come back with some real figures from independent sources! I hate assuming or expressing unsubstantiated claims.

As for the area occupied by TRNC, the quotes have changed over the years between 33-37%. This was not the point of the original argument, but since we are arguing about it; when fighting a war on the ground, it would be very difficult to mathematically work out what irregular line would depict 30%. In any case TC's have agreed to return a certain percentage of the land if and when an agreement is reached - have they not?

[Get Real!]

By the way I forgot to tell you! One of my favourite subjects is Mathematics... I suggest a doze of crash-course in basic Maths will help your in future arguments my friend

I wouldn't have a problem if you were showing off AND making sense but unfortunately you just keep making a dork of yourself!

There is only ONE authority when it comes to land in Cyprus and that is none other than the Department of Lands and Surveys which have been keeping records since taking over what the British first started,

Land Ownership in Cyprus by Ethnic Group:

60.9% - Greek/Armenian/Maronite Cypriots
12.3% - Turkish Cypriots
0.5% - Others
26.3% - State/Church Land

Source: Department of Lands and Surveys
(Refer to Annex 14 in Volume II of the "Memorandum by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus" submitted to the Foreign Affairs Committee of the House of Commons, 27 February 1987)