Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

Excellent Murataga!!!!!!!!


Lies have kept my people under seige for long enough....Let my people go.

He's gone all Moses on us again...

[Piratis]

What is wrong with agreeing that both sides comitted terrible crimes,and appologise for it sincerely...???? What is wrong with accepting that we have been duped,fed fanatical nationalist bullshit,swollowed it whole and slaughtered our own people...??? What is wrong with admitting that we cannot change what happened in the past,but we can do something about the future...??? What is wrong with saying we learned our lessons from history and we will not repeat them...????Nobody will ever divide us again as one people one nation...We embrace democracy and human rights and personal liberty and freedom...We want to be left alone to run our own country with justice and equality...We are evolved human beings who know the right from wrong,and we will put all our intellectual and emotional and spiritual resourses to resurrect our homeland as an example of tolerance,respect,and equality...Don't you think that would get us closer to a just solution than arguing about who killed whom more and for how much longer??????????????????????????

Bir, I agree 100% with you. What I always say is that we should leave the past behind and establish in Cyprus a democratic country, without racist discriminations.

Unfortunately some TCs like Viewpoint are trying to use the past as an excuse to commit crimes and illegalities today.

When they do that (and only then) I am forced to remind them that:
1) What happened in the past gives them no right to commit crimes and illegalities today

2) Even if the past could be used as an excuse, the Turks could not use it, since they were in fact the ones who have committed most of the crimes during 99% of the time.

Try to persuade Piratis and GCs like him to accept this viewpoint as you see from his posts he believes the more people you kill the more guilty you are, which is one of the most illogical arguements ever.

While your argument is that GCs are guilty just because you say so, and they therefore deserve to be punished by yet more crimes and illegalities against them

As for learning our lessons from the past I agree totally and it is infact my signature on this forum. To this end we should agree a series of safeguards to ensure that history does not repeat itself and neither community can impose their will on the other...

VP, give us back our land and our rights, allow to us to have democracy and human rights in our island, and then as long as you are acting within legality, do whatever you want. We don't want to impose anything illegal on you. We only want back what you stole from us, and our rights.

And to remind you: Having a Turkish state on land that is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs, and where GCs have lived for 3500 years, is certainly not your right. On the contrary it is our right to live there, and our right to have that place democratically ruled by its natural inhabitants.

[Piratis]

And by the way Viewpoint, we never wanted to impose our will on you. What we wanted was democracy, where the Cypriot people can decide in a democratic way, just like in every other democratic country.

We didn't bring Turks here by force in order to use them as slaves. On the contrary it is them that invaded the island, imposed their will on us and enslaved us. But they should now realize that the middle ages are over and they have no right to impose their will on this island or any part of it, against the will of the great majority of the population.

They can stay as equal Cypriot citizens and each vote from a TC will count as each vote from any other Cypriot. But if they want to just be by themselves, then they should go from where they came from, since they do not own any part of the island just by themselves, but on the contrary all parts of the island have a GC majority.

[Get Real!]

"The human cost was immense. Thousands of Greek Cypriots were killed or maimed as a result of the actions of the invading Turkish army."

These people have lied and their lies have been exposed time and time again. The true figures are far from what is being reflected. Minority Rights Group International ( www.minorityrights.org ), who gave a biased interpretation of the Cyprus conflict in the favour of the GCs even mentions:

"An estimated 3,000 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots had been killed within a month."

Even in a figure of 3000, the time of deaths during the coup is included. Here are just a few other credible journals that have reported on the number of deaths during the coup:

Murataga, how do you explain that Turkey had around 800 casualties during the July 1974 invasion?

(Part of a US senate report follows)
"As a result, through tactical errors Turkey lost an estimated 15 aircraft during the invasion. It sank one of its own destroyers. Casualties were considered light, but included some 300 men killed and another 500 wounded. Had there been any substantial Greek Cypriot forces and tanks in the northern part of the island, casualties undoubtedly would have been considerably higher. One military observer suggested, for example, that because the Turkish airborne assault came at too high an altitude, a better organized and equipped Greek Cypriot army could have easily eliminated an entire Turkish airborne regiment swinging helplessly in the air.”

Think about that for a moment... if the attacking invading army had THAT MANY casualties how many did their victims have who were getting napalmed by the Turkish air force?

Were you in Cyprus during the war? because I was...

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Unfortunately some TCs like Viewpoint are trying to use the past as an excuse to commit crimes and illegalities today.

When they do that (and only then) I am forced to remind them that:
1) What happened in the past gives them no right to commit crimes and illegalities today

2) Even if the past could be used as an excuse, the Turks could not use it, since they were in fact the ones who have committed most of the crimes during 99% of the time.

Im using the past not as excuse but as experience to why we should have safeguards to ensure the errors of the past will not be repeated and that a balance is struck between the 2 communities to ensure for example that the numerical majority cannot sell us out to Greece or any other country for that matter. Unitl we agree the framework the crimes and illegalities you claim will continue as they are necessary to ensure a peaceful exsistence, anything else and all hell will be let loose on both sides placing in danger many innocent lives exposing them to the fanatics we both know live on both sides of the divide who are waiting for the opportunity you appear only to happy to grant them.

While your argument is that GCs are guilty just because you say so, and they therefore deserve to be punished by yet more crimes and illegalities against them

It is statements like this that fuel the desire of TCs not to want anything to do with you people, if you do not understand that you do more damage than good then you are doomed to waiting for that swing.

VP, give us back our land and our rights, allow to us to have democracy and human rights in our island, and then as long as you are acting within legality, do whatever you want. We don't want to impose anything illegal on you. We only want back what you stole from us, and our rights.

And to remind you: Having a Turkish state on land that is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs, and where GCs have lived for 3500 years, is certainly not your right. On the contrary it is our right to live there, and our right to have that place democratically ruled by its natural inhabitants.

We are willing to hand back your major priority of land just as soon as we can find that structure/comprehensive solution that will provide a level footing for both communities and where one does not dictate to the other but work together as equal partners and where we do not feel like the Pakistanis in the UK. We are owners of this country not visitors.

And by the way Viewpoint, we never wanted to impose our will on you. What we wanted was democracy, where the Cypriot people can decide in a democratic way, just like in every other democratic country.

Excluding the TCs and giving our country to Greece was trying to impose your will on us without our consent. How will ensure that in future you do not pass legistlation like stopping trade with Turkey, this effects us more than you or using your numerical advantage to unite with Syria...Im not saying you will do these but why leave it to chance? thats why we need safeguards without these there will no solution or return of land. The sooner you understand this the sooner you will be able to resolve these issues and move forward, if thats what you really want, which is doubted by not only us but many nations throughout the world through your exibited desire or lack of drive to find a solution.

We didn't bring Turks here by force in order to use them as slaves. On the contrary it is them that invaded the island, imposed their will on us and enslaved us. But they should now realize that the middle ages are over and they have no right to impose their will on this island or any part of it, against the will of the great majority of the population.

What are the Pontians, Philipinos, Indians etc?..talk about slaves but what you have to comprehend is that the Turks are here on our invite to keep the peace and the last 33 years are testiment to this fact. The only way you to can move into the 21st century is to display and accept that we are your equals not just as individuals but as a community and that any solution will be under the UN proposal of BBF political equality for both communities.

They can stay as equal Cypriot citizens and each vote from a TC will count as each vote from any other Cypriot. But if they want to just be by themselves, then they should go from where they came from, since they do not own any part of the island just by themselves, but on the contrary all parts of the island have a GC majority.

Tell that to the aborginies and native americans....1974 changed everything and the last 33 years have shaped the people on both sides, your ideology is of equality between individuals...what about our community rights as joint owners of this island.

[zan]

Well said VP!!! They do not want to listen though...I wonder why.

[pitsilos]

i don't know about you zan, it just might have to do with their silly arguments about, invasions, ethnic cleansing, killings, rapes, colonizations, just to name a few...

what do you reckon?

[zan]

i don't know about you zan, it just might have to do with their silly arguments about, invasions, ethnic cleansing, killings, rapes, colonizations, just to name a few...

what do you reckon?

Oh! The past that sometimes you want to forget and sometimes you don't

[bigOz]

"The human cost was immense. Thousands of Greek Cypriots were killed or maimed as a result of the actions of the invading Turkish army."

These people have lied and their lies have been exposed time and time again. The true figures are far from what is being reflected. Minority Rights Group International ( www.minorityrights.org ), who gave a biased interpretation of the Cyprus conflict in the favour of the GCs even mentions:

"An estimated 3,000 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots had been killed within a month."

Even in a figure of 3000, the time of deaths during the coup is included. Here are just a few other credible journals that have reported on the number of deaths during the coup:

Murataga, how do you explain that Turkey had around 800 casualties during the July 1974 invasion?

(Part of a US senate report follows)
"As a result, through tactical errors Turkey lost an estimated 15 aircraft during the invasion. It sank one of its own destroyers. Casualties were considered light, but included some 300 men killed and another 500 wounded. Had there been any substantial Greek Cypriot forces and tanks in the northern part of the island, casualties undoubtedly would have been considerably higher. One military observer suggested, for example, that because the Turkish airborne assault came at too high an altitude, a better organized and equipped Greek Cypriot army could have easily eliminated an entire Turkish airborne regiment swinging helplessly in the air.”

Think about that for a moment... if the attacking invading army had THAT MANY casualties how many did their victims have who were getting napalmed by the Turkish air force?

Were you in Cyprus during the war? because I was...

I was also there during the war - you are not being truthful again GR! Never mind what the American senate at the time stated - they were very disappointed and bitter about Turkiye using NATO forces without the permission of NATO command. Further annoyed by Ecevit's rebellious behaviour in not consulting them about Turkiye's military activities in the area. Add to that the very strong Greek lobby in America at the time and one can understand their reaction...

There had been substantial Greek tanks and armoured forces in the area as quoted to you in my old posts. If you do not believe me, next time you are in Kyrenia, visit the military museum to its West which has a very small collection of what was left behind. Just to remind you: At 05:30 Saturday 20 July 1974 the Turkish air-force bombed and destroyed the 256 Infantry Regiment of the Cyprus National Guard at Glykiotissa, the 190 Light Artillery Regiment at Acheropoiitos Greek Orthodox Monastery, the 182 Heavy Artillery Regiment of Bosporos, as well as all the military installations along the Kyrenia northern coastline at Panagra.

The Turkish paratroopers were not "helplessly swinging in the air". It was the biggest airbourne assault since WW2, using not just aircraft but dozens of helicopters that ferried troops non-stop. No firepower from the Greek mainland army or the National guard was going to stop them in mid-air.

The Turkish invasion foolishly took place in a well protected coast line 5 miles west of Kyrenia, not expecting local resistance because they declared their enemy as the EOKA + Greek mainland forces. Concrete Heavy machine gun pillar boxes faced them on the main beach they chose to land. They were butchered in their hundreds before they reached dry land - I'll try and get the exact figure, but I believe it was in fact well over 1000 soldiers dead during the initial landings. From then on they were ruthlessly at war with anything that was not TC on the island!

NAPALM bombs were used during the bombings of military installations of the Cyprus National Guard, such as the military camps of Athalassa in Nicosia. No such bombs were used on civilians but bombing of anti-aircraft
installations positioned on top of the Mental Hospital in Nicosia (I forgot its name now) and some schools resulted in the destruction of these buildings as well. Fort example, GC propaganda talks of Monasteries being bombed, but what they don't tell people is that the monastery was in fact used as a military camp by the GC National Guard (see 2nd paragraph above).

Having taken the full impact of the initial invasion force and bombing NOT A SINGLE HOUSE OR A BUILDING IN KYRENIA TOOK A HIT FROM ANY AIRCRAFT, WARSHIP, TANK OR MORTAR FIRE! The villages all around Kyrenia shared the same faith. Contrary to what many GC sites would say, the Turkish military attacks were carefully aimed at military positions, and that included buildings or constructions occupied by military for whatever reason. Had the Turkish military been half as barbarous and ruthless as portrayed by many fanatics, there would have been well over 100,000 GC deaths - not only in the invaded area but by the bombardment of areas from air well into South (which was within their easy reach).

Remember, at the time the whole island was at their mercy, especially after the annihilation of mainland Greek and National Guard troops that stood in their way. NO ONE STOPPED THEM ALONG THE 1/3 LINE OF THE ISLAND - they could have gone on and captured 50% or even 60 % within the next 48 hours. The reason they stopped where they did was very clear in the message passed on at the time "When it was created, TCs owned the legal deeds to around third of the land in the Republic, this is where we stop!".

As I said before, who knows whether any GC would have been killed during the invasion if there was no resistance to the initial invasion which cost the lives of so many Turkish soldiers before they even set foot on the island. In fact I'll go further than that and say, probably there would have been no casualties whatsoever resulting from such an action, had the British accepted Ecevit's offer for a joint operation as guarantor powers - they preferred the safety of their barracks throughout the whole ordeal. Most likely, the GCs would have trusted a joint operation more and not resisted - until the elected president and RoC government was reinstated.

Alas, we cannot turn the clock back, so we'll have to deal with it!

[Get Real!]

"The human cost was immense. Thousands of Greek Cypriots were killed or maimed as a result of the actions of the invading Turkish army."

These people have lied and their lies have been exposed time and time again. The true figures are far from what is being reflected. Minority Rights Group International ( www.minorityrights.org ), who gave a biased interpretation of the Cyprus conflict in the favour of the GCs even mentions:

"An estimated 3,000 Greek Cypriots and 500 Turkish Cypriots had been killed within a month."

Even in a figure of 3000, the time of deaths during the coup is included. Here are just a few other credible journals that have reported on the number of deaths during the coup:

Murataga, how do you explain that Turkey had around 800 casualties during the July 1974 invasion?

(Part of a US senate report follows)
"As a result, through tactical errors Turkey lost an estimated 15 aircraft during the invasion. It sank one of its own destroyers. Casualties were considered light, but included some 300 men killed and another 500 wounded. Had there been any substantial Greek Cypriot forces and tanks in the northern part of the island, casualties undoubtedly would have been considerably higher. One military observer suggested, for example, that because the Turkish airborne assault came at too high an altitude, a better organized and equipped Greek Cypriot army could have easily eliminated an entire Turkish airborne regiment swinging helplessly in the air.”

Think about that for a moment... if the attacking invading army had THAT MANY casualties how many did their victims have who were getting napalmed by the Turkish air force?

Were you in Cyprus during the war? because I was...

I was also there during the war - you are not being truthful again GR! Never mind what the American senate at the time stated - they were very disappointed and bitter about Turkiye using NATO forces without the permission of NATO command. Further annoyed by Ecevit's rebellious behaviour in not consulting them about Turkiye's military activities in the area. Add to that the very strong Greek lobby in America at the time and one can understand their reaction...

There had been substantial Greek tanks and armoured forces in the area as quoted to you in my old posts. If you do not believe me, next time you are in Kyrenia, visit the military museum to its West which has a very small collection of what was left behind. Just to remind you: At 05:30 Saturday 20 July 1974 the Turkish air-force bombed and destroyed the 256 Infantry Regiment of the Cyprus National Guard at Glykiotissa, the 190 Light Artillery Regiment at Acheropoiitos Greek Orthodox Monastery, the 182 Heavy Artillery Regiment of Bosporos, as well as all the military installations along the Kyrenia northern coastline at Panagra.

The Turkish paratroopers were not "helplessly swinging in the air". It was the biggest airbourne assault since WW2, using not just aircraft but dozens of helicopters that ferried troops non-stop. No firepower from the Greek mainland army or the National guard was going to stop them in mid-air.

The Turkish invasion foolishly took place in a well protected coast line 5 miles west of Kyrenia, not expecting local resistance because they declared their enemy as the EOKA + Greek mainland forces. Concrete Heavy machine gun pillar boxes faced them on the main beach they chose to land. They were butchered in their hundreds before they reached dry land - I'll try and get the exact figure, but I believe it was in fact well over 1000 soldiers dead during the initial landings. From then on they were ruthlessly at war with anything that was not TC on the island!

NAPALM bombs were used during the bombings of military installations of the Cyprus National Guard, such as the military camps of Athalassa in Nicosia. No such bombs were used on civilians but bombing of anti-aircraft
installations positioned on top of the Mental Hospital in Nicosia (I forgot its name now) and some schools resulted in the destruction of these buildings as well. Fort example, GC propaganda talks of Monasteries being bombed, but what they don't tell people is that the monastery was in fact used as a military camp by the GC National Guard (see 2nd paragraph above).

Having taken the full impact of the initial invasion force and bombing NOT A SINGLE HOUSE OR A BUILDING IN KYRENIA TOOK A HIT FROM ANY AIRCRAFT, WARSHIP, TANK OR MORTAR FIRE! The villages all around Kyrenia shared the same faith. Contrary to what many GC sites would say, the Turkish military attacks were carefully aimed at military positions, and that included buildings or constructions occupied by military for whatever reason. Had the Turkish military been half as barbarous and ruthless as portrayed by many fanatics, there would have been well over 100,000 GC deaths - not only in the invaded area but by the bombardment of areas from air well into South (which was within their easy reach).

Remember, at the time the whole island was at their mercy, especially after the annihilation of mainland Greek and National Guard troops that stood in their way. NO ONE STOPPED THEM ALONG THE 1/3 LINE OF THE ISLAND - they could have gone on and captured 50% or even 60 % within the next 48 hours. The reason they stopped where they did was very clear in the message passed on at the time "When it was created, TCs owned the legal deeds to around third of the land in the Republic, this is where we stop!".

As I said before, who knows whether any GC would have been killed during the invasion if there was no resistance to the initial invasion which cost the lives of so many Turkish soldiers before they even set foot on the island. In fact I'll go further than that and say, probably there would have been no casualties whatsoever resulting from such an action, had the British accepted Ecevit's offer for a joint operation as guarantor powers - they preferred the safety of their barracks throughout the whole ordeal. Most likely, the GCs would have trusted a joint operation more and not resisted - until the elected president and RoC government was reinstated.

Much of what you say here is unsubstantiated BOLLOCKS. You may have read a Turkish analyst's account of what happened who was trying to cover up the utter incompetence of the Turkish forces.

I am an eyewitness of much of what happened as I was at a most unfortunate non-military location and have family members who were also on the frontlines throughout the width of the ceasefire line so I'm really not interested in your stories and opinions.