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Ankara must answer

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:27 am

Birkibrisli wrote:There are a lot to be said about alll this but I am afraid I do not have the time now...So quickly: Can someone explain to me,without using propaganda terms,how did Turkey justify legally her continued presence in Cyprus???? I mean we all know the Agreement and the powers of the guarnators to intervene to restore the independence and the integrity of the RoC ,but has she ever offered any explanation at all why the constitutional order was not reestablished in July,74????

And also: I read quickly the speech by that professor Kifeas Quoted from and one thing struck me as very odd : He talked about the rights of the GCs and the rights (human and other) of the settlers,but not one word about the rights of the TCs... It is as if we have already become totally extinct or superflous in any equation regarding the Cyprus conflict. Doesn't anybody else think this is rather strange or sad or whatever????????


There is no legal ground Birkibrisli, there are only excuses. The Tcs themselves are the ones who can blow away the very last excuse Turkey has. However the Tcs are afraid to do it unless there is an overall solution. That's why Turkey will never let the Tcs ever reach an agreed solution, and that's why Turkey never accepted to let an international force take over and guarantee the safety of TCs. She simply wants her "unsinkable ship", no matter what.

It was like that even before the 60s when Turkey was negotiating Enosis on exchange of eternal huge Military bases.

NB. I haven't read the professor's article.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:48 am

CopperLine wrote:Pyropolizer,
Keep moving the goalposts by all means, but we were talking about the rights and wrongs of intervention not the human rights consequences. I repeat, ECHR does not address the questions we were focusing on.


I am not moving any goalposts at all. I already said very clearly the Turkish Invasion started as an intervention and turned into an Invasion within 24 hours. You cannot just concentrate on the finite time element of 1 minute before the Turkish troops landed, because that's totally out of anyones interest.

The ECHR decisions do not address those questions directly simply because that's not the scope of ECHR. It's decisions however can well form the backbone of any hypothetical legal trial on whether the intervention had turned into nothing else than invasion/ethnic cleansing/unsurping of properties/colonisation and an overall violation of the Treaty of Guarantee on the first place.


I hope I am clear.

Obviously you want to hear which court was ever set up to judge Turkey's actions beyond those that concern human rights. Should I remind you that even the appearance of Turkey at ECHR was not obligatory unless she has first signed the relevant papers towards her EU road?

I believe Kifeas gave you the answer long time before. Turkey never accepted to go to any such court.

So here's the FINAL question for you my friend. Would YOU ever accept to go at any court knowing you would be found GUILTY AS CHARGED? (assuming you are given the choice to go or not i.e)

:wink:
Last edited by Pyrpolizer on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zan » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:58 am

Hand back the country to whom???? There was not a legitamate government to hand it back too so they tried to negosiate one. One in which the TCs would return to their rightful positions but Makarios did not want that. The discussions continue today.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:01 am

Yeah now that Zany jumped in we got everything that we needed.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Postby zan » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:03 am

HA hahhahhahhahhhhahhahahahhahhahhahhhaha.....................................................................................HA! :roll:
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:08 am

zan wrote:HA hahhahhahhahhhhahhahahahhahhahhahhhaha.....................................................................................HA! :roll:


That's the most interesting part :P
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Postby zan » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:51 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
zan wrote:HA hahhahhahhahhhhahhahahahhahhahhahhhaha.....................................................................................HA! :roll:


That's the most interesting part :P


Its like keeping the baby amused talking to you Pyro1...I see we have been stuck with you and not the other one that could not speak English properly. Are you claimimg both the wages now...If not, I would. 8)
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Postby CopperLine » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:50 pm

The ECHR decisions do not address those questions directly simply because that's not the scope of ECHR.
Agreed, so why do you persist in dragging it back in ?

It's decisions however can well form the backbone of any hypothetical legal trial on whether the intervention had turned into nothing else than invasion/ethnic cleansing/unsurping of properties/colonisation and an overall violation of the Treaty of Guarantee on the first place.


Let's get this straight once and for all, because it doesn't affect the legality or otherwise of the intervention/invasion. The ECHR addresses human rights questions, the clue is in its title. It is not charged with addressing the legality or otherwise of intervention. So no, it's consideration couldn't form the 'backbone of any ...trial'. Irrespective of whether the intervention was legally justified or not, citizens and states of signatories could bring cases before the ECHR. Thus, for example, the ECHR doesn't have to come to a conclusion that the intervention was illegal before it can conclude that, say, the actions of the Turkish administration of northern Cyprus resulted in human rights abuses. Ethnic cleasing is a human rights abuse and a case aganist the state alleged to have done the killing could be brought before the ECHR, but human rights abuses are a different action to international intervention and entail quite different kinds of law. Your confusion can be illustrated through an analogy : in English law divorce cases are dealt through the Family Division, but it could be that a partner has suffered a criminal injury in the lead up to the divorce plea and in that respect is an important part of the circumstances and reasons for divorce. But divorce is a civil matter dealt by the Family Courts and, physical violence is a criminal matter dealt with by the criminal courts. A judgement on one court, on the basis of one set of laws, does not automatically or necessarily determine the conduct and outcome of the other court.

I already said very clearly the Turkish Invasion started as an intervention and turned into an Invasion within 24 hours.
I, and millions of others would be interested in your distinction between an intervention and an invasion. What's your legal opinion about Iraq ? How, in legal terms, did '74 or '03 start as an intervention but then turn into an invasion ? You might look at Nicaragua v United States of America at the ICJ to appreciate how impossible this distinction, regretably, has proved to be.

the appearance of Turkey at ECHR was not obligatory unless she has first signed the relevant papers towards her EU road?


Wrong again, the ECHR has nothing to do with the EU or EU accession. Accession to the ECHR neither depends on EU membership nor EU candidacy nor any level of entry negotiation. Thus, for example, Armenia is a sigantory as is Iceland as is Ukraine, none of which are EU states or candidates. And when did Turkey sign the convention ? 1954 Hardly evidence 'signing the relevant papers towards her EU road' ! Interestingly Greece signed into the Convention after the fascist colonels had been booted out (Nov 1974) and RoC signed in 1962.

Would YOU ever accept to go at any court knowing you would be found GUILTY AS CHARGED?
Well if you put it like that, I'd think that that court was assuming my guilt before I'd had a chance to present my case. I'd say that I'd be suspecting you of inviting me to a show trial or a kangaroo court. And if I did turn up you can bet that I'd have an immediate submission before the ECHR on an Article 6 claim (right to a fair trial)

Anyway the question still stands, which courts and which cases ?
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Postby Viewpoint » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:53 pm

zan wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
zan wrote:HA hahhahhahhahhhhahhahahahhahhahhahhhaha.....................................................................................HA! :roll:


That's the most interesting part :P


Its like keeping the baby amused talking to you Pyro1...I see we have been stuck with you and not the other one that could not speak English properly. Are you claimimg both the wages now...If not, I would. 8)


Dont know why you bother with these clowns, its a clear waste of time and these people should not be taken seriously, let them wallow in their own shit, they know who they are.
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Postby zan » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:57 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
zan wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
zan wrote:HA hahhahhahhahhhhahhahahahhahhahhahhhaha.....................................................................................HA! :roll:


That's the most interesting part :P


Its like keeping the baby amused talking to you Pyro1...I see we have been stuck with you and not the other one that could not speak English properly. Are you claimimg both the wages now...If not, I would. 8)


Dont know why you bother with these clowns, its a clear waste of time and these people should not be taken seriously, let them wallow in their own shit, they know who they are.


Only on a slow day VP. I have to swat the fly that keeps buzzing in my ear every now and then but you are right... :oops: [/img]
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