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Ankara must answer

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby EPSILON » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:07 pm

zan wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
BelloTurco 2007 wrote:Ankara and Turkey does n t have to answer to anything pal. There was a war, a genoicde and Turkey responded by sending a peace keeping mission to protect the weaker party which was being slaughtered. No way should Turkey have to pay for anything. Turkey should be compensated for the money it s had to spend to keep peace on the ?sland! ?f you want to help you should look at ways of an ammicable reunifaction not cry about something which is now ancient history!

Playing the devil's advocate I should remind that the Greek Cypriots have another option; they can exercise a TOTAL embargo on the “TRNC” and then just sit back and wait for the tide to turn... real slow... and then one day when it is least expected perform a little "peace operation" of their own to return the favor...
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If the world were not watching GR then I have no doubt in my mind that that would have happened long ago. Thank heavens for Turkey and humanity around the world.....


ZAN- Greeks have a very deep and long hapid- they fa..c only in time
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Postby CopperLine » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:30 pm

Pyropolizer,
I'm not sure this exchange is taking us very far, but let's have another go.

Nowhere in the T of Guarantee do the words appear that you place in upper case letters as if an obvious, unambiguous quotation - RESTORE THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER. Granted you might think that this is what the T. meant or even should have said, but that is NOT what it actually says. In that light the ambiguity and plausible different interpretations is glaring.

I'd have thought that you'd be on stronger ground - that is to say less ambiguous - if you'd referred directly to Article 4 "In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of reestablishing the state of affairs created by the present Treaty." But there is no point in starting a legal argument by invoking something in your imagination as opposed to the text on the page. All the same, Art 4. is still fairly imprecise. I don't know if Turkey actually argued this, but one could easily say, consistent with Art 4., something like "we couldn't agree with our fellow guarantors a common response, however since as a guarantor power we believed the crisis to be critical and urgent we felt bound to intervene. It was always our intention to re-establish the state of affairs or the status quo ante but regrettably hostile forces have continued to frustrate our peaceful ambitions." (Stage left: howls of derision).

If Turkey thought that was not clear enough for her she could easily go to any international court and claim ambiguity....
Again I'm sorry to point out that what you've suggested here just doesn't occur in international law. (It doesn't even work like this in domestic law : as a citizen you don't present yourself to a court at the end of each day or week for the court to check that what you'd been doing was lawful !) What would the doorman have said when the Turkish delegation turned up at court [which court do you have in mind] on a Monday morning saying 'we're here to see if it's all ok with her indoors' ?

Oh the Americans just got annoyed-there was no legal basis for what they did! ....


Embargoes by one state against another are not a matter of international law. In that sense they're neither illegal or legal. A domestic comparison would be if we'd been engaged in commerce and for some reason I didn't want to sell stuff to you any more, there's nothing you could do about it. My refusal to continue to sell is not illegal.
If, say, the UN SC through proper procedure, imposed sanctions (which are to be enforced by all members) then to continue to trade with the target of sanctions would be illegal. But an individual country imposing an embargo is of little legal interest. The UN SC has never imposed sanctions on Turkey over Cyprus, or anything else for that matter.

show me one legal decision Turkey ever managed to win


I think the onus is on you to at least tell me which cases you have in mind and which court/s heard the cases. Please note, the UN Security Council is not a court (although it may be regarded as one source of law).
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:26 pm

CopperLine

Restore the "constitutional order" and restoring the "state of affairs" is exactly the same thing. Now you say Turkey can claim it tried it's best but it had hostile forces against her therefore that's the best she could do. INCLUDING of course the ethnic cleansing of armless GC civilians, and everything that followed. However remember if this hypothetical trial would ever happen these would just be claims. There are thousands of ways/events/testimonies to just prove them lies or excuses. But even in the remote possibility that the trial would just stuck there, using your logic one could go on telling Turkey "you admitted that you failed", now step over and Greece or UK will do the job that YOU ADMITTED you tried your best and failed. And according to your logic Turkey should say yes, no problem, after all it’s your right under the treaty of Guarantee.
:lol: :lol:


wrote: Again I'm sorry to point out that what you've suggested here just doesn't occur in international law. (It doesn't even work like this in domestic law : as a citizen you don't present yourself to a court at the end of each day or week for the court to check that what you'd been doing was lawful !) What would the doorman have said when the Turkish delegation turned up at court [which court do you have in mind] on a Monday morning saying 'we're here to see if it's all ok with her indoors' ?


I know it doesn’t occur in International law but it could be used as a defensing argument at least in the UN or in the EU. I was not suggesting Turkey to present herself at a court, I was saying Turkey should do it when she was draged at courts Turkey simply never claimed ambiguity. Furthermore there is tons of evidence that Turkey was not aiming at restoration of the state of affairs. A legal case never ends with silly claims of ambiguity. It checks the claims and proves them right or wrong accordingly.

wrote: Embargoes by one state against another are not a matter of international law. In that sense they're neither illegal or legal. A domestic comparison would be if we'd been engaged in commerce and for some reason I didn't want to sell stuff to you any more, there's nothing you could do about it. My refusal to continue to sell is not illegal.
If, say, the UN SC through proper procedure, imposed sanctions (which are to be enforced by all members) then to continue to trade with the target of sanctions would be illegal. But an individual country imposing an embargo is of little legal interest. The UN SC has never imposed sanctions on Turkey over Cyprus, or anything else for that matter.


What I said was that Turkey never had a "strong legal position" as you claimed. The US sanctions was just an indication of that. In common sense terms nobody is embargoed by his strongest ally and a superpower while having a "strong legal case" . The actual proof that Turkey never had a strong legal case was the UN resolutions that followed.

wrote: I think the onus is on you to at least tell me which cases you have in mind and which court/s heard the cases. Please note, the UN Security Council is not a court (although it may be regarded as one source of law).


The ECHR.
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Postby CopperLine » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:02 pm

The ECHR.


The ECHR addresses human rights questions; it has no authority to adjudicate on the legality or otherwise of war/military interventions.

Next ?
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:28 pm

It has authority to address the legality of the results of illegal invasions/occupations/ethnic cleansing/unsurping of properties etc as in fact did and found TURKEY guilty as charged.
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Postby zan » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:17 am

CopperLine wrote:
The ECHR.


The ECHR addresses human rights questions; it has no authority to adjudicate on the legality or otherwise of war/military interventions.

Next ?


Just think of Inspector Clusoe when you are talking to Pyro and it will not hurt so much.... :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Is that your minky???? :lol: :lol:
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Postby pitsilos » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:24 am

zan wrote:
CopperLine wrote:
The ECHR.


The ECHR addresses human rights questions; it has no authority to adjudicate on the legality or otherwise of war/military interventions.

Next ?


Just think of Inspector Clusoe when you are talking to Pyro and it will not hurt so much.... :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Is that your minky???? :lol: :lol:


always lurking in the background hey zan?...try and not be so obvious next time... :lol:

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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:27 am

There are a lot to be said about alll this but I am afraid I do not have the time now...So quickly: Can someone explain to me,without using propaganda terms,how did Turkey justify legally her continued presence in Cyprus???? I mean we all know the Agreement and the powers of the guarnators to intervene to restore the independence and the integrity of the RoC ,but has she ever offered any explanation at all why the constitutional order was not reestablished in July,74????

And also: I read quickly the speech by that professor Kifeas Quoted from and one thing struck me as very odd : He talked about the rights of the GCs and the rights (human and other) of the settlers,but not one word about the rights of the TCs... It is as if we have already become totally extinct or superflous in any equation regarding the Cyprus conflict. Doesn't anybody else think this is rather strange or sad or whatever????????
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:32 am

pitsilos wrote:
zan wrote:
CopperLine wrote:
The ECHR.


The ECHR addresses human rights questions; it has no authority to adjudicate on the legality or otherwise of war/military interventions.

Next ?


Just think of Inspector Clusoe when you are talking to Pyro and it will not hurt so much.... :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Is that your minky???? :lol: :lol:


always lurking in the background hey zan?...try and not be so obvious next time... :lol:

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now i know the head where Zany's biiiig brains are stored.
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Postby CopperLine » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:27 am

Pyropolizer,
Keep moving the goalposts by all means, but we were talking about the rights and wrongs of intervention not the human rights consequences. I repeat, ECHR does not address the questions we were focusing on.
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