The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Ankara must answer

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby CopperLine » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:59 pm

Care explain what do you mean with the above?

As far as I know, "TRNC" is neither de jure, nor de facto recognised by any international organisation. UN in its resolutions considers it as a non-existing entity, the EU the same, as well as the Council of Europe and the ECtHR in all the cases they have tried regarding Cyprus. They all regard the areas of Cyprus outside the de facto control of the RoC, as areas under the control of the Turkish military and Turkey.

And what do you mean by: "precisely on a massive asymmetry and inequality under international law?" Do you mean that the "TRNC" should be de jure recognised, so that this "massive asymmetry" ceases to exist? I hope this is not what you imply, but somewhat I have a feeling this is precisely what you are saying!


In reverse order :

1. No I was not saying there that TRNC should be recognised, I was just pointing out that in practice, de facto, there are lots of ways in which TRNC is acknowledged and recognised. Lots of state and international organisations effectively say, 'yes we know you're an illegal entity but actually we're still engaged in commercial, cultural, political relations with you' and that includes RoC. It is a form of turning a 'blind eye', sometimes because it is pragmatic and beneficial to the third party and other times because third parties are trying to if not 'normalise' relations with the TRNC then trying to provide a foundation upon which negotiations can take place. Thus for example, allowing cross-Green Line traffic does not confer de jure recognition on the TRNC but it does acknowledge the reality that the TRNC has effective control over a territory.

The reference to assymetry and inequality again was just an ironic observation that since TRNC is not recognised at all (exception Turkey and Azerbaijan) then it has next to zero legal standing, but substantial enough de facto recognition to make the place viable (yes even with support/subsidy from Turkey etc).

2. I agree, TRNC is not recognised de jure by EU, UN etc. But these states and organisations cannot deny that TRNC is actually there in effective control of a territory (even if you think this is colonial artefact of Turkey) and so they contrive ways of practical support to TRNC, for example, UNDP, UNESCO, and even the UK in the case Oram case (not recognising TRNC in UK courts, but concretely addressing civil material within TRNC claimed jurisdiction). People might think that these are games and fictions but they're very real and significant games and fictions. (There are similar examples from other parts of the world one could point to, this ruses are certainly not restricted to Cyprus).

3. 'two wrongs don't make a right' - at an intuitive moral level of course I agree with this sentiment, but we're not dealing with intuitive moral feelings, we're dealing with national and international law. There is nothing in principle stopping you as, say, Australia agreeing with me as, say, Bolivia, agreeing to allow Bolivians to be tried in Australian courts but not for Australians to be tried in Bolivian courts. That would be the result of negotiated agreement confirmed in our respective legislatures, but one which treats Australians and Bolivians differently and unequally. In fact connected to this assymetry there is a lot of 'jurisdiction tourism' : if you're gone be done for some crime or civil wrong, especially in financial and property crime, it can be worth your while being tried in country X and not country Y.

Why is TRNC the country of choice for alleged criminals escaping national prosecution ? If TRNC were recognised, these criminals would have one less place to hide in. The absymal treatment of women in TRNC 'nightclubs' continues not because TRNC citizens don't give a damn but in large part because the non-recognition of TRNC allows a legal blackhole for criminals and their crimes to jump into. Similarities with Guantanamo are not beyond consideration. (Of course I think there's a lot more to this last bit than I've mentioned, but I do think this paradox is at the heart of the problem).
User avatar
CopperLine
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:04 pm

Postby CopperLine » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:28 pm

sure but turkey constnttly ignores the human right laws and being asked to remove all troops from cyprus


Paliometoxo, if you mean that Turkey ignores human rights law in Turkey then I'd broadly agree with important provisos. That Turkish citizens and Turkish officials, including army and police, carry out human rights violations and on a disturbingly high number of occasions is unquestionable. From my point of view it is not 'Turkey' that is committing these crimes instead the crucial question is can these crimes be reduced and eliminated and if they occur are there legal mechanisms to be bring the perpetrators to account. When the Brazilian worker Charles de Menezes was killed by London's Metropolitan police I didn't conclude that the British state was targetting Brazilians, it was that the police screwed up and killed an innocent man. Was there a mechanism for bringing people to account ? (Kind of, but it was a travesty to Menezes and all).

Turkey has come along way in changing its legal and judicial system to meet new standards on fair and open trials, laws and human rights. I'm under no illusion that there's a long way to go. But the truth is that whilst there has been international and EU pressure for these changes, it has been mainly the persistent and courageous action of Turkish citizens insisting on proper regard for due process and human rights. And there are plenty of fascist thugs, including in state employment, who have not hesitated in trying to put a stop to these changes even to the point of mounting assassination campaigns.

If you mean Turkey in Cyprus and TRNC in particular then, the occupation aside, I am not aware of 'constant ignoring of human rights laws'. Doubtless there are examples of human rights abuses, though I don't see this reported often and cases do not come to prominence in the courts. Just because TRNC is not legally recognised does not mean that it is lawless. It inherits a curious mixture of English common law like RoC and 'continental codified law' from the Turkish influence. If constant human rights violations are occurring in TRNC, at the hands of Turkish (as opposed to TRNC) persons then I'd be interested to know :: the major international human rights organisations despite their typically meticulous invetsigative fashion have not reported 'constant' violations. For example, AI's report for 2007 for both Turkey and Cyprus make no mention of human rights abuses in TRNC) What do you have in mind ?

The relationship between human rights and the laws of occupation (yes there is a separate body of international law specifically dedicated to mattes of occupying forces) is a whole other question.

[/quote]
User avatar
CopperLine
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:04 pm

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:02 pm

zan wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:What do you mean you? Are we Greece here? If there are similar cases in Greece against Turks then either the Greek state should rectify or get sued at ECHR.

@Paliometoxo,

Turkey will be in huge trouble in her EU road imo. while the above case is a bit complicated there are almost 200,000 Greeks who were deported during the 1955 progrom and their properties confiscated....

Next time you hear the Greek national anthem being played at one of your sporting events you can ask yourself the same question... :roll: :roll: :roll:


Next thing you are going to tell us is Turks from Turkey should sue Cyprus to the ECHR for their properties in Greece just because Cyprus (quite wrongly and in the absence of anything else in the constitution) plays the Greek national anthem in stadiums. :P :P :P :P
User avatar
Pyrpolizer
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12893
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:33 pm

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:18 pm

CopperLine wrote: the non-recognition of TRNC allows a legal blackhole for criminals and their crimes to jump into.


You forgot the No1 criminal on the first place is "trnc" itself, that’s why it cannot be recognised. It’s like a criminals nest where other criminals find refuge, nothing strange with that. :lol:
User avatar
Pyrpolizer
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12893
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:33 pm

Postby paliometoxo » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:31 pm

thers nothing legal about the TRNC ur right Pyrpolizer
User avatar
paliometoxo
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8837
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:55 pm
Location: Nicosia, paliometocho

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:21 pm

Including the criminals that find refuge in there Paliometoxo :wink:
User avatar
Pyrpolizer
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12893
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:33 pm

Postby pantheman » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:01 am

Copperline,

just who is funding you to write such utter rubbish ? The stuff you write does not jusy come to you at that moment in time, i don't believe it. It is thought out, carefully contrived and written with an air of authority which means you are getting dosh for it.

Of all the rubbish you have written, de facto, de jure, assymetrical and what not is in my book called BBB ( Bullshit baffles brains)

The TRNC is illegal by all international laws. Period

Turkey have violated all UN resolutions against her relating to cyprus. Period

Turkey has ignre and violated ECHR rulings against her. Period

Shall i go on. And you have the audacity to stand there and spew this crap. You must think you are talking to a bunch of 4 year olds.

Please do give us some credit and don't try to justify the wrongs of turkey against cyprus.

Whats going on bertween greece and turkey is another matter don't confuse the two and try to draw parallels on that front.

In sum, sod off, and don't fecking insult us anymore.
User avatar
pantheman
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1553
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:21 pm

Postby CopperLine » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:08 am

You forgot the No1 criminal on the first place is "trnc" itself, that’s why it cannot be recognised.


Wrong. TRNC is not criminal it is just not recognised - two totally different legal concepts. That TRNC is not recognised does not mean (a) that it is lawless, (b) that it is beyond the compass of international law, and in those respects is still subject to international law. Acts may be criminal, states in themselves are not.

TRNC could be recognised at the drop of a hat, just as Slovenia, Croatia, and other former federal Yugoslav states were even though the FR of Yugoslavia in the form of the core state of Serbia Montenegro violently opposed their secession and international recognition. The irony is that if the 1974 separation and the 1983 TRNC declaration had occurred respectively one decade later the chances are that TRNC wouuld have been recognised immediately by the international community because of the developments in 'international humanitarian law' and the 'laws of war' following the end of the Cold War. You could say that TCs were just too far ahead of their time.

In fact one of the simplest solutions to the Cyprus problem is of course just to take 30 plus years of a de facto two state solution and turn it into a de jure two state solution. This is entirely in keeping with the logic of the EU and a 'Europe of nations'.
User avatar
CopperLine
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:04 pm

Postby Get Real! » Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:28 am

CopperLine wrote:
You forgot the No1 criminal on the first place is "trnc" itself, that’s why it cannot be recognised.


Wrong. TRNC is not criminal it is just not recognised - two totally different legal concepts. That TRNC is not recognised does not mean (a) that it is lawless, (b) that it is beyond the compass of international law, and in those respects is still subject to international law. Acts may be criminal, states in themselves are not.

The "TRNC" is an unrecognized and illegal entity owing its existence to the military and economic support of Turkey and was condemned by the UN Security Council via resolutions 541 and 550 which declared it legally invalid, called for its immediate withdrawal, and urged all states not to recognize it.
User avatar
Get Real!
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 48333
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: Nicosia

Postby Kifeas » Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:00 am

CopperLine wrote:
You forgot the No1 criminal on the first place is "trnc" itself, that’s why it cannot be recognised.


Wrong. TRNC is not criminal it is just not recognised - two totally different legal concepts. That TRNC is not recognised does not mean (a) that it is lawless, (b) that it is beyond the compass of international law, and in those respects is still subject to international law. Acts may be criminal, states in themselves are not.

TRNC could be recognised at the drop of a hat, just as Slovenia, Croatia, and other former federal Yugoslav states were even though the FR of Yugoslavia in the form of the core state of Serbia Montenegro violently opposed their secession and international recognition. The irony is that if the 1974 separation and the 1983 TRNC declaration had occurred respectively one decade later the chances are that TRNC wouuld have been recognised immediately by the international community because of the developments in 'international humanitarian law' and the 'laws of war' following the end of the Cold War. You could say that TCs were just too far ahead of their time.

In fact one of the simplest solutions to the Cyprus problem is of course just to take 30 plus years of a de facto two state solution and turn it into a de jure two state solution. This is entirely in keeping with the logic of the EU and a 'Europe of nations'.


"TRNC" is nothing more than an imposed and subservient local regime of Turkey, the illegally occupying power of 37% of the de jure recognised territory of the RoC! This is the founding of the European Court of Human rights in both the Cyprus vs. Turkey interstate case rulings and the Loizidou vs. Turkey ruling.

It is for this reason that also the EU, in it's Cyprus treaty of accession with it, has accepted and confirmed (protocol 10 of the treaty) that the RoC sovereignty and de jure jurisdiction cover the entire island of Cyprus; and in fact that is why the whole of Cyprus -and not just the non-occupied areas, are regarded to have acceded the EU, always under the umbrella of the RoC -the co-signatory government of the treaty on behalf of Cyprus.

The Cyprus treaty of accession (which was part of the entire 10 new member enlargement treaty) was co-signed by all the EU institutions (the council and the commission) and each and every EU member state individually. The treaty was then ratified by the EU parliament and each and every member state parliament.

This treaty legally binds all the EU member states (including UK and France which hold a permanent position in the UN SC) tightly to its terms; something that leaves no room for anyone of them to ever recognise a separate entity in Cyprus, without the RoC consent! The alternative would have made the entire enlargement treaty to collapse (become invalidated,) and the entire EU as a direct consequence. Go and figure out what that means, and what chances a "TRNC" recognition has, either by the UN or the EU or any of its member states.

Mr CopperLine, I am glad you have finally revealed what I have suspected from the first moment you made your appearance in this forum! I am glad you finally revealed your true colours!

Well, my friend, do whish and hope that an "entity" such as the "TRNC;" which was the direct outcome of an illegal act of foreign aggression, in violation of the UN Charter, and which is based on an illegal occupation of a sovereign UN and now EU member state; with all its side consequences such as the ethnic cleansing of 80% of the legal and legitimate population of this part of Cyprus, and the massive violation of all property and other human rights of its expelled indigenous population; (do hope) that it has any chance to ever become recognised as a legal entity, especially in view of this new dimension called the EU and the Cyprus treaty of accession! Do hope!

Do hope, CopperLine (or shall I say Loupusdiavoli,) and while you are hopping, please also remember that Turkey will be seating and hopelessly waiting for its own entrance into the EU! Unless of course if you are naive enough to believe that there is a RoC government and /or a RoC parliament that will ever accept, sign and ratify the accession of its invader, occupier and ethnic cleanser of its people into the EU! Perhaps only if we are threatened, and in fact someone actually drops on us a couple of Atomic bombs, like those of Hiroshima! Maybe only then!
User avatar
Kifeas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4927
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Lapithos, Kyrenia, now Pafos; Cyprus.

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests