Cyprus-Forum.com

[iceman]

the information you've been given on the number of settlers is not correct. In a recent physical count of settlers in Cyprus after 1974, living in TRNC, had revealed they number somewhere near 40,000, half of which are their children that were born in Cyprus many years after they settled. Many of them had in fact married TCs so their children are at least half original TCs. Considering the TC population is currently 180,000 plus, they are not even quarter of the total population.

You need to refresh your information database regarding population in north Cyprus M8..

http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/Nufus%20Kesin%20Sonuc-3.pdf

[bigOz]

I agree with all the above, except RoC claims that 109-11700 are Turkish settlers have no factual basis. It is the first I hear of it and believe me no such "count" was ever carried out either by RoC or the UN. So feel free to accept the reliability of these quoted figures...

No matter how many the settlers are, don't you agree that they are more than enough to change the demographics?

The way I would look at it is "reclaiming" the demographics that were changed from what they were, when the RoC was declared in 1960. The Republic's demographics changed drastically in favour of the GCs, when thousands of TCs departed to live in other countries every year - often encouraged / assisted by the RoC government.

alexISS, please believe me when I say to you that I grew up in pre 1974 Cyprus witnessing the developments in the TC enclaves since 1963. The civil servants, police, fire-brigade, shop keepers etc, all had an average age of 40 plus by 1973! This is a fact known to every TC who lived during those times. There were no industries or jobs that would provide work for any young people! Add to that ,the lack of proper higher education and most of the young men were constantly moving off the island to Europe, USA, Australia, Turkey etc - except those caught up in doing national service for 24 months or more. The persistent attacks on many villages by EOKA-B and the subsequent emptying of more than 100 TC villages also helped this exodus.

Every TC who lived in enclaves craved for and looked for the opportunity to join up any family members living abroad - especially in UK. Many who had visa problems, found the solution in marrying TC girls living abroad, whose families were already settled there. One can leave in denial and turn a blind eye to this but the sad truth is, there are well over 250 000 ethnic TCs (unconfirmed, I personally think it's a lot more) living in foreign land. Many had returned to TRNC after 1974 to set home there which would account for the increase in the TC population. The reverse movement is still continuing to this day, by many who are constantly building houses in the North or selling up in UK and retiring to Cyprus.

The above being the case, it is neither here nor there to talk about the Turkish settlers changing the demographics of Cyprus. As far as I am aware the TC government have agreed to return (in accordance with UN demands) many Turkish settlers back to Turkey except those who got married to TC women and those who have couple of generations of children living in Cyprus. I think probably RoC laws would also allow the husbands and fathers of such people to remain - irrespective of their ethnic origin.

[alexISS]

The way I would look at it is "reclaiming" the demographics that were changed from what they were, when the RoC was declared in 1960. The Republic's demographics changed drastically in favour of the GCs, when thousands of TCs departed to live in other countries every year - often encouraged / assisted by the RoC government.

alexISS, please believe me when I say to you that I grew up in pre 1974 Cyprus witnessing the developments in the TC enclaves since 1963. The civil servants, police, fire-brigade, shop keepers etc, all had an average age of 40 plus by 1973! This is a fact known to every TC who lived during those times. There were no industries or jobs that would provide work for any young people! Add to that ,the lack of proper higher education and most of the young men were constantly moving off the island to Europe, USA, Australia, Turkey etc - except those caught up in doing national service for 24 months or more. The persistent attacks on many villages by EOKA-B and the subsequent emptying of more than 100 TC villages also helped this exodus.

Every TC who lived in enclaves craved for and looked for the opportunity to join up any family members living abroad - especially in UK. Many who had visa problems, found the solution in marrying TC girls living abroad, whose families were already settled there. One can leave in denial and turn a blind eye to this but the sad truth is, there are well over 250 000 ethnic TCs (unconfirmed, I personally think it's a lot more) living in foreign land. Many had returned to TRNC after 1974 to set home there which would account for the increase in the TC population. The reverse movement is still continuing to this day, by many who are constantly building houses in the North or selling up in UK and retiring to Cyprus.

The above being the case, it is neither here nor there to talk about the Turkish settlers changing the demographics of Cyprus. As far as I am aware the TC government have agreed to return (in accordance with UN demands) many Turkish settlers back to Turkey except those who got married to TC women and those who have couple of generations of children living in Cyprus. I think probably RoC laws would also allow the husbands and fathers of such people to remain - irrespective of their ethnic origin.

But those TCs migrated because the living conditions in Cyprus were bad for ALL Cypriots, not just for them. Many more GCs fled to Australia, the UK, the USA and elsewhere. Infact the GCs living abroad are more than the GCs in Cyprus TODAY, I believe there are more than 1 million Greek Cypriots outside of Cyprus. It may be convenient to claim that it was the government that sent those TCs away, but the truth is that Cyprus was a very poor country at that time and those that left needed no convincing by government officials

[alexISS]

the information you've been given on the number of settlers is not correct. In a recent physical count of settlers in Cyprus after 1974, living in TRNC, had revealed they number somewhere near 40,000, half of which are their children that were born in Cyprus many years after they settled. Many of them had in fact married TCs so their children are at least half original TCs. Considering the TC population is currently 180,000 plus, they are not even quarter of the total population.

You need to refresh your information database regarding population in north Cyprus M8..

http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/Nufus%20Kesin%20Sonuc-3.pdf

Could you please provide the numbers mentioned in the pdf since it's in Turkish?

[Pyrpolizer]

There is evidence a large part of TCs are ex-christians or latins who converted to Islam.When the British took over by 1878 within 20 years the number of mouslims dropped by some 30% (from memory) because a lot of them converted back to Chistianity. This is what defined a Turk or a Greek then, relegion not language.

We have whole lots of purely TC villages that had Greek names. The last one i discovered is Ayios Ioannis in Paphos. That was an unmixed Tc village. When GC refugees got in they found christian icons and "kapnistiria" inside the houses.

Both the Gcs and the Tcs are bastardised in my opinion and the matter of indigenousness cannot be individualised neither be generalised on community basis.

GR there might be Tcs who claim they are indigenous and base their partition claims on that but this doesn't mean we have to listen to every paranoid, have we?

[bigOz]

the information you've been given on the number of settlers is not correct. In a recent physical count of settlers in Cyprus after 1974, living in TRNC, had revealed they number somewhere near 40,000, half of which are their children that were born in Cyprus many years after they settled. Many of them had in fact married TCs so their children are at least half original TCs. Considering the TC population is currently 180,000 plus, they are not even quarter of the total population.

You need to refresh your information database regarding population in north Cyprus M8..

http://nufussayimi.devplan.org/Nufus%20Kesin%20Sonuc-3.pdf

Could you please provide the numbers mentioned in the pdf since it's in Turkish?

The document states that 67,000 Turkish Citizens had actually settled in the island after 1974. However it refers to "Turkish Citizens" within the context that everyone who returned to TRNC holding a Turkish passport was not from from Cyprus originally (between 1963 and 1974). Just to give you an example, my own brother his wife and child had returned from Turkey as TC citizens in 1975, after studying, residing and becoming a Turkish Citizen in Turkey for 10 years. One of my aunt's daughters and her two children are in the same category.

The figures provided are based on statistical info accumulated over many years. Hence, they include thousands of citizenships issued to non-resident Turkish people either who served in Turkish military in Cyprus or were businessmen who had a second TRNC citizenship issued to them prior to elections by some clever politicians keen on getting extra votes by these mobile voters. Many more of original mainland settlers also left back to Turkey after being granted the former Federal State citizenship and the latter TRNC citizenship. Just to give an example that iceman might himself remember, many flats above Halil's Bar in the harbour were occupied by such settlers, the most famous one being the captain of the ferry that used to travel between Tasucu and Cyprus (plus his wife and two daughters) who lived in Cyprus until early 1980s. Almost all had returned to Turkey since and those flats are now occupied by TCs!

I honestly do not have the actual edition of Kibris paper that quoted the results of the findings of a body count that accounted for Turkish settlers actually living in Cyprus during 2006. It may or not may have been correct, but considering the above, a figure of 40,000 is more realistic than claiming more than 100,000 of the population are Turkish settlers.

I agree with Pyrpolizer that the question of indigenousness should not be addressed too seriously under the circumstances, since the effort should be based on a solution that would offer peaceful existence to all ethnic communities. There is no point addressing individual claims from both sides and using that as a reason or excuse for no-settlement policy!

[Murataga]

No you are wrong.

First of all who we are are Greeks but also Cypriots. We are the result of the assimilation between the Greeks and the people that lived in Cyprus before that and those that came after that.

Really? Explain to me how exactly did you assimilate? Did you assimilate into speaking and writing Greek? Did you assimilate into the religion of the existing inhabitants? Did you assimilate into calling yourself Greek? Did you assimilate into singing the Greek anthem? Did you assimilate into wanting to hand over this island to Greece- and even to going as far as massacring her other inhabitants to achieve it? Did you assimilate into waving the Greek flag in your government buildings?

You might have picked up a few traditions, gestures, dance figures and dishes along the way but you remained distinctively Hellenic; which is what YOU have proudly posted here at least a dozen times. The fact is you are no different than us: settlers who have arrived after other people who were already living in Cyprus.

[Pyrpolizer]

BigOZ,

In this forum I stated my thought that whatever the number of settlers is, it has already reached its maximum limit. Because there are no empty/free properties to get anymore. What do you think about that?

Other Tcs feel free to reply.

[alexISS]

No you are wrong.

First of all who we are are Greeks but also Cypriots. We are the result of the assimilation between the Greeks and the people that lived in Cyprus before that and those that came after that.

Really? Explain to me how exactly did you assimilate? Did you assimilate into speaking and writing Greek? Did you assimilate into the religion of the existing inhabitants? Did you assimilate into calling yourself Greek? Did you assimilate into singing the Greek anthem? Did you assimilate into wanting to hand over this island to Greece- and even to going as far as massacring her other inhabitants to achieve it? Did you assimilate into waving the Greek flag in your government buildings?

You might have picked up a few traditions, gestures, dance figures and dishes along the way but you remained distinctively Hellenic; which is what YOU have proudly posted here at least a dozen times. The fact is you are no different than us: settlers who have arrived after other people who were already living in Cyprus.

The difference between the two is that Greek "settlers" settled a more or less uninhabited island and peacefully mixed with the (very) few people they found there. The Turkish "settlers" invaded and occupied an island that by that time was culturally, ethnically and demographically fully developed and defined. However, I repeat that this is not a reason to call the TCs "foreigners" to Cyprus, they are as Cypriot as GCs are

[Murataga]

No you are wrong.

First of all who we are are Greeks but also Cypriots. We are the result of the assimilation between the Greeks and the people that lived in Cyprus before that and those that came after that.

Really? Explain to me how exactly did you assimilate? Did you assimilate into speaking and writing Greek? Did you assimilate into the religion of the existing inhabitants? Did you assimilate into calling yourself Greek? Did you assimilate into singing the Greek anthem? Did you assimilate into wanting to hand over this island to Greece- and even to going as far as massacring her other inhabitants to achieve it? Did you assimilate into waving the Greek flag in your government buildings?

You might have picked up a few traditions, gestures, dance figures and dishes along the way but you remained distinctively Hellenic; which is what YOU have proudly posted here at least a dozen times. The fact is you are no different than us: settlers who have arrived after other people who were already living in Cyprus.

The difference between the two is that Greek "settlers" settled a more or less uninhabited island and peacefully mixed with the (very) few people they found there. The Turkish "settlers" invaded and occupied an island that by that time was culturally, ethnically and demographically fully developed and defined. However, I repeat that this is not a reason to call the TCs "foreigners" to Cyprus, they are as Cypriot as GCs are

(1) The GCs have mixed with no one and remained as they were- with minor exceptions. (2) The Turks took the island from the Venetian, where the Greek inhabitants were heavily oppressed. Both events occured at different tmes within a different historical context, nevertheless the common denominator is that both Greeks and the Turks have arrived afterwards as settlers.