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Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:24 pm

bigOz wrote:The stupid claims by many in this forums about Greeks being Indigenous to Cyprus can only be expressed if they learn the meaning of the word:

indigenous:

1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa. (dictionary.com)

2. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native. (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. originating where it is found; "the autochthonal fauna of Australia includes the kangaroo"; "autochthonous rocks and people and folktales"; "endemic folkways"; "the Ainu are indigenous to the northernmost islands of Japan" (Wordnet)

4. having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (Webster's Medical Dictionary)

Unless Greek race originated from Cyprus, will all fools claiming Greeks are the indigenous people of Cyprus understand now why they are TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG!

I suggest we put this useless argument aside once and for all!!!

Your arguments are no different to those of Murataga; You ASSUME that just because we are referred to as "Greek Cypriots" today we are also ALL from Greece!

What a daft conclusion!

If I were to ask you... "So where are the indigenous Cypriots today?" …you wouldn't be able to place them anywhere outside of Cyprus because there is no such historic evidence that they left the island!

So where does that leave you? On the same pile where you’ll find murataga!
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Postby Piratis » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:25 pm

Who are you referring to by the word "we" when talking about legal majority in Cyprus. Is that not a departure from or hypotritical of previous arguments (by most) in this forum? I am referring to everyone talking about Cypriots and Cyprus belonging to all Cypriots irrespective of their ethnicity!


And who ever said that a country belongs only to the majority? Majorities and minorities are formed if you classify people based on something. Since you want to divide people based on ethnic background, then based on that GCs are the majority. Personally I have absolutely no problem if we stop classifying people based on ethnicity and we just have equal Cypriots, one person one vote. Would you accept that though?

Furthermore you are implying the others or the smaller ethnic group has no human or international rights.

And when did I imply this??? Of course they have. But they don't have the right to keep 1/3rd of our country under occupation, and it is to that I was referring to.


TCs are just as indegineous as any other Cypriot whose ancestry has been fucked many times over by every Arab, Anatolian, Greek, French, Roman, Turkish, English that found the whore-house of Cyprus in their path! You might speak the lingo but you are as Greek as I am Chinese and no TC or sensible GC will agree that Greeks are indigenous to Cyprus!


Then you disagree with Murataga who said that the TCs didn't mix with GCs or anybody else in Cyprus and they are just the Turks that came less than 500 years ago?

I don't have a problem with your approach but in that case you should tell Murataga that there is just one Cypriot people with the only difference that some speak Turkish instead of Greek, and some are Muslim instead of Christian.


The stupid claims by many in this forums about Greeks being Indigenous to Cyprus can only be expressed if they learn the meaning of the word:

Greeks are as indigenous to Cyprus as they are in Athens or Crete. If you claim that Greeks are not indigenous to Cyprus then you should also say that Greeks are not indigenous to Greece, Spanish to Spain, French to France and Chinese to China.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:30 pm

Get Real! wrote:
bigOz wrote:The stupid claims by many in this forums about Greeks being Indigenous to Cyprus can only be expressed if they learn the meaning of the word:

indigenous:

1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa. (dictionary.com)

2. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native. (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. originating where it is found; "the autochthonal fauna of Australia includes the kangaroo"; "autochthonous rocks and people and folktales"; "endemic folkways"; "the Ainu are indigenous to the northernmost islands of Japan" (Wordnet)

4. having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (Webster's Medical Dictionary)

Unless Greek race originated from Cyprus, will all fools claiming Greeks are the indigenous people of Cyprus understand now why they are TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG!

I suggest we put this useless argument aside once and for all!!!

Your arguments are no different to those of Murataga; You ASSUME that just because we are referred to as "Greek Cypriots" today we are also ALL from Greece!

What a daft conclusion!

If I were to ask you... "So where are the indigenous Cypriots today?" …you wouldn't be able to place them anywhere outside of Cyprus because there is no such historic evidence that they left the island!

So where does that leave you? On the same pile where you’ll find murataga!


I think BigOz aproach is different from the one of Murataga.

Murataga claims that Turks didn't mix with GCs, and that they are the Turks that settled in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule. If that was the case then only Greek Cypriots would be Cypriots.

I think BigOz probably accepts that there is just one Cypriot people, and the fact that some Cypriots speak Turkish and are Muslims is due to the fact that some Cypriots became Muslims during the Ottoman rule (in order to pay less taxes and be treated better)
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Postby CopperLine » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:57 pm

Piratis, I didn't "choose to ignore what [I] don't like?" That is just idle and mischievous speculation. It is equally the case that despite the fact that I argued that 'blood' arguments are scientific nonsense, you repeated that "we can easily identify if any of us has any Turkish blood in him." Shouldn't I also charge you with "choose to ignore what you don't like?" [Incidentally if this visual blood testing skill is so simple and self-evident, why don't forensic investigators like those in CSI use this method instead of setting up complex and expensive labs ?] There are many things to write about, many comments from many writers to consider. On a Forum of all places we'd be all lost if we made the assumption that that which didn't get a direct reply was a function of our displeasure or dissent !

Who said it was? The "indegeousness" discussion is just a response to those that say that in Cyprus there are two peoples. If there are indeed two peoples, and the invading Ottoman Turks never mixed up with the Cypriots that inhabited the island (as Murataga claims), then obviously the "TCs" are nothing more than Turks that now live in Cyprus, and have noting to do with the Cypriot population.

Our rights are crystal clear and are based on international law, human rights and the very simple fact that we are legally the great majority at all parts of the island. Who is indigenous and who is not is just a side discussion and has very little to do with our rights.


I can say this with at least some authority since as part of my professional work I'm a specialist in International Law, first, so-called national rights are not 'crystal clear' in international law as you assert. The ambiguity of national rights is something not just confined to Cyprus and Cypriots but is endemic to international law as a whole. If national rights were as clear as you insist then, arguably the Cyprus question wouldn't be so vexed. Nor would those of Israel/Palestine, Sri Lanka, Iraq, Armenia, Burma, Pakistan, Rwanda, Somalia, Mexico, Guatemala, Russia, even the UK and Ireland. Second, that the majority of a given country's population can be identified as being from Group X does not give Group X *more* or stronger rights. The whole point of modern republican citizenship, from at least the French Revolution onwards, was that citizens were equal before the law, that is to say held equal sets of rights before the law. That one was a 'national' or a religious believer, a man or a woman, rich or poor, country bumpkin or urbane cosmopilitan was no longer, in principle, to be relevant. Now that we enjoy EU citizenship it means, in principle, that you enjoy equality before the law with a Finnish Muslim woman, and a Spanish atheist pensioner. Third you mention specifically the basis of Cypriot rights in human rights. But, I repeat, the whole point of human rights is that they inhere in persons because they are human beings (hence *human* rights) and not because one claims a national identity. The most obvious and familiar codification of human rights is the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights [you can find the full and definitive text here http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/ ]. Look at Article 2 in particular, which is one of the sources of my points above - its says :

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


Incidentally the second paragraph of Article 2, amongst others, confirms the rights which Turkish Cypriots should enjoy even though TRNC is an unrecognised state. The UDHR 1948 is specifically designed to protect individuals first and foremost, not collective or social rights. (There are other international legal instruments which deal with the latter).

The other Article, 15, that's probably especially relevant to this discussion states :

Article 15

1. Everyone has the right to a nationality.
2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.


But neither that article nor any other makes any connections whatsoever between claims to indigeneity and national rights. It couldn't do, because if it did it would contradict the rest of the Declaration and and undermine the very principle upon which modern human rights law has developed, namely equality of the individual.

Finally I do confess that I'm confused by your response because as I understand it - and I'm sure people will correct me if I'm mistaken - GetReal introduced this thread by making some claims about the importance of indigeneity to the Cyprus problem, the title of this thread is after all "Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus ?', then there was a discussion about what indigenous means, who was or was not indigenous, how we might be able to classify someone as indigenous or invader or whatever else. And my contributions were mainly intending to argue that it is not possible at all to define indigeneity still less establish any criteria, and it was in that context that I tried to dismiss any effort to come up with a DNA or blood test of indigeneity. In any case I argued in a casual phrase, that you part quoted, no connection can be made between scientific claims and social-political conclusions over disputes. [In case of any ambiguity in my meaning of 'dispute', I meant socio-political disputes in general and not necessarily the Cyprus dispute in particular].

You seem to want to take a jump from asserting that GCs and not TCs are indigenous and that because of that the rights of GCs are more firmly rooted, and the TCs because, according to you, are not indigenous have no rights or at most very weak rights. And I am saying to you that this jump is illicit and it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding as to the sources, character and organisation of rights, including human rights, both within states and in international law.

One final thought for the moment : when does "I am a Greek Cypriot born and living in Cyprus" become "We are Greek Cypriots who have always lived in Cyprus" ? Natural beings, like you and I, live for 'three score years and ten', but collectivities seem to live longer ... at least in our historical imagination. Indigeneity is figment of the imagined community.
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:03 pm

Back to the topic of indigenous peoples!

Only an illiterate or a purely shameless and audacious person can possibly claim that the people of Cyprus, especially the Greek speaking majority, cannot as a cultural entity be regarded as an indigenous society of Cyprus! By most ways and measures, even the Turkish speaking community of Cyprus can also be regarded as an indigenous society, after 400 years of uninterrupted existence in this country -set aside the nearly 4,000 years of uninterrupted Greek Cypriot existence in all the parts and corners of Cyprus!

Even if one wants to claim that the Hellenic cultural elements of the Greek Cypriot society were once imported from elsewhere, still this doesn’t make the GC society a non-indigenous to Cyprus, simply because whatever people existed before the beginning of this gradual Hellenisation (proto-Cypriots,) have been assimilated and merged with the then new-comers into forming what is nowadays regarded as the GC community!
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Postby Piratis » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:48 pm

Piratis, I didn't "choose to ignore what [I] don't like?" That is just idle and mischievous speculation. It is equally the case that despite the fact that I argued that 'blood' arguments are scientific nonsense, you repeated that "we can easily identify if any of us has any Turkish blood in him." Shouldn't I also charge you with "choose to ignore what you don't like?" [Incidentally if this visual blood testing skill is so simple and self-evident, why don't forensic investigators like those in CSI use this method instead of setting up complex and expensive labs ?] There are many things to write about, many comments from many writers to consider. On a Forum of all places we'd be all lost if we made the assumption that that which didn't get a direct reply was a function of our displeasure or dissent !

The original Turks are Asians from Mongolia. If you see a Mongolian would you need complicated scientific methods to understand he is not indigenous of Cyprus?

Second, that the majority of a given country's population can be identified as being from Group X does not give Group X *more* or stronger rights. The whole point of modern republican citizenship, from at least the French Revolution onwards, was that citizens were equal before the law, that is to say held equal sets of rights before the law. That one was a 'national' or a religious believer, a man or a woman, rich or poor, country bumpkin or urbane cosmopilitan was no longer, in principle, to be relevant.

And I agree 100% with that. Did I ever say the opposite? What I always say is that all foreign troops should leave from Cyprus, and all Cypriots, one person one vote, without any kind of discriminations, to elect their leadership and take decisions for their own island. Do you disagree with any of this?

I can say this with at least some authority since as part of my professional work I'm a specialist in International Law, first, so-called national rights are not 'crystal clear' in international law as you assert.

In our case they are. It is a crystal clear case of invading a sovereign country. The problem still exists because Turkey refused to obey the UN resolutions calling for the immediate withdrawal of her troops from our country.

Incidentally the second paragraph of Article 2, amongst others, confirms the rights which Turkish Cypriots should enjoy even though TRNC is an unrecognised state.


Did anybody said the should not? What I always say is that all citizens of Cyprus should enjoy the 100% of their rights. It is some others who insist that human rights violations should continue and as a result they face consequences.

You seem to want to take a jump from asserting that GCs and not TCs are indigenous and that because of that the rights of GCs are more firmly rooted, and the TCs because, according to you, are not indigenous have no rights or at most very weak rights.

Again you are wrong. As citizens of Republic of Cyprus they have the exact same rights as every other citizen. What they don't have the right is to say "oh, we are different people so we can ethnically cleanse you, violate your human rights and steal your land". Clear now?
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Postby paliometoxo » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:53 pm

well said.. agree 100%...

i wanna knwo why they refuse to remove troops... and why UN does not enforce this rule and turkey just sits and ignores it
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Postby bigOz » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:12 pm

Kifeas wrote:Back to the topic of indigenous peoples!

Only an illiterate or a purely shameless and audacious person can possibly claim that the people of Cyprus, especially the Greek speaking majority, cannot as a cultural entity be regarded as an indigenous society of Cyprus! By most ways and measures, even the Turkish speaking community of Cyprus can also be regarded as an indigenous society, after 400 years of uninterrupted existence in this country -set aside the nearly 4,000 years of uninterrupted Greek Cypriot existence in all the parts and corners of Cyprus!

Even if one wants to claim that the Hellenic cultural elements of the Greek Cypriot society were once imported from elsewhere, still this doesn’t make the GC society a non-indigenous to Cyprus, simply because whatever people existed before the beginning of this gradual Hellenisation (proto-Cypriots,) have been assimilated and merged with the then new-comers into forming what is nowadays regarded as the GC community!

Kifeas you are sounding more and more redicilous by your stubborn persistance of something where you are TOTALLY WRONG in! No matter how you twist and turn, there is no way you can convince anyone of average intelligence that Greeks are indeginous to Cyprus. IT JUST DOES NOT FIT THE DESCRIPTION OF THE MEANING OF THE WORD "INDEGINOUS"! Which part of that you are having difficulty in understanding?

Native indians are indeginous to North America but not the American citizens of today! The same applies to South America! Black people are indeginous to Africa but not the white citizens of South Africa. Because those people had not originated from there, they arrived in boats after few other civilistions had existed in those places!

No one claimed all Greeks are indigenous people of Greece - and they are not! Most Greeks were the conquerors of Greece from other parts of the region who set up their existence on the destruction of other civilisations already present. The same applies to Turkish race, who in reality are indigenous to an area of Asia, West of China. To this day those areas are populated by Turkic speaking nations of Turkish descent! Turks are not indigenous to Turkey.

I repeat the meaning of the word indigenous as accepted by all dictionaries of the world:

1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa. (dictionary.com)

2. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native. (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. originating where it is found; "the autochthonal fauna of Australia includes the kangaroo"; "autochthonous rocks and people and folktales"; "endemic folkways"; "the Ainu are indigenous to the northernmost islands of Japan" (Wordnet)

4. having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (Webster's Medical Dictionary)


GREEKS DID NOT ORIGINATE FROM CYPRUS - HENCE THEY ARE NOT INDIGENOUS TO CYPRUS! End of...

Are you now saying your interpretation is more accurate than the rest of the World's dictionaries? Well rock on Kifeas, and prove to everyone what a fool you are! Alternatively be a man enough to accept that you were wrong in your suggestion on the topic of indegeniousness and let it rest. I am not involving anyone else's argument or alluding to anything else in this thread - only that you WERE and ARE wrong with all this indigenous business. :D

If you still wish to continue for the sake of argument and nothing else - just go ehead and be my guest!
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Re: Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

Postby zan » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:29 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:NB. Do I remember correctly that when the matter was discussed you discarded it saying you are a Turk and only Turk and you have nothing in common with the GCs? More consistence please :wink:


:lol: Did he? I must've missed that! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Poor Zan , he hardly got back from a holiday and he's already fallen in the first hole he dug... :)


You will have to shout louder or wait for the very long rope to be dropped into YOUR hole. Any chance of answering some of the questions.....?
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Postby zan » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:32 pm

Piratis wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
bigOz wrote:The stupid claims by many in this forums about Greeks being Indigenous to Cyprus can only be expressed if they learn the meaning of the word:

indigenous:

1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa. (dictionary.com)

2. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native. (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. originating where it is found; "the autochthonal fauna of Australia includes the kangaroo"; "autochthonous rocks and people and folktales"; "endemic folkways"; "the Ainu are indigenous to the northernmost islands of Japan" (Wordnet)

4. having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (Webster's Medical Dictionary)

Unless Greek race originated from Cyprus, will all fools claiming Greeks are the indigenous people of Cyprus understand now why they are TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG!

I suggest we put this useless argument aside once and for all!!!

Your arguments are no different to those of Murataga; You ASSUME that just because we are referred to as "Greek Cypriots" today we are also ALL from Greece!

What a daft conclusion!

If I were to ask you... "So where are the indigenous Cypriots today?" …you wouldn't be able to place them anywhere outside of Cyprus because there is no such historic evidence that they left the island!

So where does that leave you? On the same pile where you’ll find murataga!


I think BigOz aproach is different from the one of Murataga.

Murataga claims that Turks didn't mix with GCs, and that they are the Turks that settled in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule. If that was the case then only Greek Cypriots would be Cypriots.

I think BigOz probably accepts that there is just one Cypriot people, and the fact that some Cypriots speak Turkish and are Muslims is due to the fact that some Cypriots became Muslims during the Ottoman rule (in order to pay less taxes and be treated better)

It seems that you can only navigate your way out of half the maze that you put your self in. If the TCs are not indeginous the same rule MUST apply to you and there fore niether are you as BigOz has stated. Follow the light....Follow the light...... :roll:
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