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Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am

Piratis wrote:The real Turks are Asians with looks very similar to the ones of Mongols. I think based on that we can easily identify if any of us has any Turkish blood in him. Personally I look like a native Mediterranean/Caucasian person, not like Mongols who are not native to our area. What about you Zan?



The point is what is indeginous and what is not and how long it takes before you can claim what you claim. The question has been side lined because it has been made to look rediculous as the person that asked it. I am what I am and what I percieve myself to be and I am a Turk and a Cypriot and all this fuss about what my blood line is is of no consequence.
I have, however stated before about my looks and some history of where my MANY sides of the family came from so perhaps you should look further back into your history. I was born with blond curly hair and blue eyes and am now a brown haired green eyed God........ :P Well the hair is thin and the eyes are fading but you know what I mean. My fathers side seem to have come from the Russian Steps and my mother has very Asian and VERY Cypriot looking at the same time. There are many GC and TC ladies that are dressed in black that look like her. I once saw a documentary about Turkmenistan and the whole village looked just like my dad...It was quite strange to see. I have been mistaken for almost all the nations of the world except for Arab ones. That includes Jewish, Greek, Turkish, Spanish, French and Italian so if you can come to any conclusions from that then you are a better man than I am. Now if you ask me what I see myself as then I will always tell you that I am Turkish and a Cypriot and very proud to be what I am.........
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Postby CopperLine » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:17 am

Perhaps we can knock the on the head the attempt to distinguish GCs from TCs (indeed from any 'group' of human beings) on the basis of DNA. The comments on DNA and bloodline are, I'm afraid, just bad science. Pasted below is the best shortest explanation that I could find on the web as to why tryig to distinguish people on the basis of DNA simply doesn't work. I have highlighted those sections (in bold text) which are particularly important in the context of this discussion :


Patterns of genetic diversity inform us about population history because each major demographic event leaves an imprint on a population's collective genomic diversity. A reduction in population size reduces genetic diversity, and an increase in population size eventually increases diversity. The exchange of migrants between populations inevitably results in greater genetic similarity, while isolation preserves genetic uniqueness. These demographic signatures are passed from generation to generation, such that the genomes of modern individuals reflect their demographic history. Thus, it is reasonable to say that our history is written in our DNA. As we accumulate more and more data on DNA variation, and as we develop better tools to analyze these data, our history will become increasingly clear.

How diverse are we?

Perhaps the most widely cited statistic about human genetic diversity is that any two humans differ, on average, at about 1 in 1,000 DNA base pairs (0.1%). Human genetic diversity is substantially lower than that of many other species, including our nearest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee. Genetic diversity is a function of a population's "age" (i.e., the amount of time during which mutations accumulate to generate diversity) and its size. Our genetic homogeneity implies that anatomically modern humans arose relatively recently (perhaps 200,000 years ago) and that our population size was quite small at one time (perhaps 10,000 breeding individuals).

To put the 0.1% genetic diversity estimate into perspective, it is useful to remember that humans have approximately 3 billion base pairs in a haploid cell. Thus, any pair of humans differs by approximately 3 million base pairs. These differences contain much useful information about the evolutionary history of our species. In addition, the small proportion of differences that occur within genes can lead to critical inferences about the effects of natural selection.

How is genetic diversity distributed within and between populations?

Human populations can be defined along geographic, political, linguistic, religious, or ethnic boundaries. Using a common definition that groups populations into major continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, and North and South America), many studies have shown that approximately 90% of genetic variation can be found within these populations, and only about 10% of genetic variation separates the populations. Thus, the great majority of genetic differences can be found between individuals from any one of the major continents, and, on average, only a small proportion of additional differences will be found between individuals from two different continents. Furthermore, because human history is a history of population movement, and because humans are extraordinarily adept at sharing their DNA, the genetic boundaries between populations are typically indistinct. For any given DNA sequence or gene, two individuals from different populations are sometimes more similar to one another than are two individuals from the same population.

The fact that humans are relatively homogeneous at the DNA level, combined with the fact that between-population variation is modest, has significant social implications. Importantly, these patterns imply that the DNA differences between individuals, and between populations, are relatively scant and do not provide a biological basis for any form of discrimination.
This is extracted from a slightly longer article at http://www.genednet.org/pages/k12_evolution-jorde.shtml# which is part of the US-based Genetic Education Network

My impression is that all or most people are agreed that the history of Cyprus - at the cross-roads of the Mediterranean and the Middle East - is one of almost constant inward and outward migration, of invasions and commerce, that is to say of continuing population movement and cross-reproduction. That being the case it makes DNA differentiation impossible.

And apart from this, DNA is a reference to a particular kind of scientific description whereas Turkish Cypriot, Greek Cypriot, Greek, Turk, Russian, Tamil etc are particular kinds of political-social descriptions. DNA can't settle a political-social dispute. One should always worry when people try to rope in DNA or blood science for political purposes - remember the pseudo-science of the Nazis.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:54 am

DNA can't settle a political-social dispute.


Did you read my previous response to you, or you choose to ignore what you don't like?

This subject has nothing to do with settling the dispute. Our rights are crystal clear in both terms of international law and human rights, and we are the legal majority of the whole island.

You can dispute my indigenousness as anybody can dispute whatever they want, but beyond that there are is international law and our undisputed rights as the great majority of inhabitants of this island.

On the other hand the non-indigenousness of TCs is in fact admitted by them, when they claim that they are the Ottoman Turks that came to Cyprus less than 500 years ago. So the point of this thread is proved, and thats it. Beyond that it has nothing to do with the dispute.
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Postby bigOz » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:50 am

Piratis wrote:
DNA can't settle a political-social dispute.


Did you read my previous response to you, or you choose to ignore what you don't like?

This subject has nothing to do with settling the dispute. Our rights are crystal clear in both terms of international law and human rights, and we are the legal majority of the whole island.

You can dispute my indigenousness as anybody can dispute whatever they want, but beyond that there are is international law and our undisputed rights as the great majority of inhabitants of this island.

On the other hand the non-indigenousness of TCs is in fact admitted by them, when they claim that they are the Ottoman Turks that came to Cyprus less than 500 years ago. So the point of this thread is proved, and thats it. Beyond that it has nothing to do with the dispute.

Piratis, sometimes you are really full of it aren't you? I have never met such a stubborn person like you! :D You have a way of somehow changing everything into your own nationalistic - extreemist perception. And people think VP is bad?

Who are you referring to by the word "we" when talking about legal majority in Cyprus. Is that not a departure from or hypotritical of previous arguments (by most) in this forum? I am referring to everyone talking about Cypriots and Cyprus belonging to all Cypriots irrespective of their ethnicity!

Furthermore you are implying the others or the smaller ethnic group has no human or international rights. How sad! TCs are just as indegineous as any other Cypriot whose ancestry has been fucked many times over by every Arab, Anatolian, Greek, French, Roman, Turkish, English that found the whore-house of Cyprus in their path! You might speak the lingo but you are as Greek as I am Chinese and no TC or sensible GC will agree that Greeks are indigenous to Cyprus!

The stupid claims by many in this forums about Greeks being Indigenous to Cyprus can only be expressed if they learn the meaning of the word:

indigenous:

1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa. (dictionary.com)

2. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native. (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. originating where it is found; "the autochthonal fauna of Australia includes the kangaroo"; "autochthonous rocks and people and folktales"; "endemic folkways"; "the Ainu are indigenous to the northernmost islands of Japan" (Wordnet)

4. having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (Webster's Medical Dictionary)

Unless Greek race originated from Cyprus, will all fools claiming Greeks are the indigenous people of Cyprus understand now why they are TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG!

I suggest we put this useless argument aside once and for all!!!
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Re: Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:13 pm

zan wrote:Sorry I have been away for so long GR but I had seven glorious days in Cornwall with my family. We stayed in in a Building built in 1775 that resembled a castle and was built specifically for the study of the therapeutic values of seaweed. Ironic when I suffered all week with my back.

Your absence is ALWAYS felt dear Zan although I suspect that Murataga missed you more than anybody else... :) I'm happy you had a great holiday and soon it will be my turn. 8)

So welcome back, pull up a chair, and it's back to business as usual! :lol:
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Re: Are Turkish Cypriots Indigenous to Cyprus?

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:24 pm

blackley wrote:Regards Get Real’s offer to give me a run for my money in Cyprus Forum.

Welcome aboard Blackley, I see you've already managed 18 messages!

Btw, my offer read:

"why don’t you come and join us Blackley on the Cyprus Forum and we’ll take it from there. I assure you the boys there, both GC and TC, will give you a good run for your “money”. "

I'll respond to your input asap.

Regards, GR.
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Re: Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:50 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:NB. Do I remember correctly that when the matter was discussed you discarded it saying you are a Turk and only Turk and you have nothing in common with the GCs? More consistence please :wink:


:lol: Did he? I must've missed that! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Poor Zan , he hardly got back from a holiday and he's already fallen in the first hole he dug... :)
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Re: Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

Postby Get Real! » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:58 pm

zan wrote:The fact that blood lines might be interrelated does not make me Greek I am afraid although that seems to be the way that your race seem to claim anything positive as being Greek. You know...The same way Sammy Davis Junior is Jewish...Hahahahaha!

Look at the bright side of being Greek Zan... you might end up being a Spartan! :lol:
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Postby Get Real! » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:09 pm

Piratis wrote:The real Turks are Asians with looks very similar to the ones of Mongols. I think based on that we can easily identify if any of us has any Turkish blood in him. Personally I look like a native Mediterranean/Caucasian person, not like Mongols who are not native to our area. What about you Zan?

Well, luckily Zan emailed me one of his recent pics taken while he was on holiday with his family so I guess we’ve got something to work on…
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:11 pm

bigOz wrote:
Piratis wrote:
DNA can't settle a political-social dispute.


Did you read my previous response to you, or you choose to ignore what you don't like?

This subject has nothing to do with settling the dispute. Our rights are crystal clear in both terms of international law and human rights, and we are the legal majority of the whole island.

You can dispute my indigenousness as anybody can dispute whatever they want, but beyond that there are is international law and our undisputed rights as the great majority of inhabitants of this island.

On the other hand the non-indigenousness of TCs is in fact admitted by them, when they claim that they are the Ottoman Turks that came to Cyprus less than 500 years ago. So the point of this thread is proved, and thats it. Beyond that it has nothing to do with the dispute.

Piratis, sometimes you are really full of it aren't you? I have never met such a stubborn person like you! :D You have a way of somehow changing everything into your own nationalistic - extreemist perception. And people think VP is bad?

Who are you referring to by the word "we" when talking about legal majority in Cyprus. Is that not a departure from or hypotritical of previous arguments (by most) in this forum? I am referring to everyone talking about Cypriots and Cyprus belonging to all Cypriots irrespective of their ethnicity!

Furthermore you are implying the others or the smaller ethnic group has no human or international rights. How sad! TCs are just as indegineous as any other Cypriot whose ancestry has been fucked many times over by every Arab, Anatolian, Greek, French, Roman, Turkish, English that found the whore-house of Cyprus in their path! You might speak the lingo but you are as Greek as I am Chinese and no TC or sensible GC will agree that Greeks are indigenous to Cyprus!

The stupid claims by many in this forums about Greeks being Indigenous to Cyprus can only be expressed if they learn the meaning of the word:

indigenous:

1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa. (dictionary.com)

2. Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment. See Synonyms at native. (American Heritage Dictionary)

3. originating where it is found; "the autochthonal fauna of Australia includes the kangaroo"; "autochthonous rocks and people and folktales"; "endemic folkways"; "the Ainu are indigenous to the northernmost islands of Japan" (Wordnet)

4. having originated in and being produced, growing, or living naturally in a particular region or environment (Webster's Medical Dictionary)

Unless Greek race originated from Cyprus, will all fools claiming Greeks are the indigenous people of Cyprus understand now why they are TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG!

I suggest we put this useless argument aside once and for all!!!


bigOz, you are free to call a whore-house, the house and the mother through which you have been brought into life, but you have absolutely no right to regard my country as a whore-house of anyone, just because being a small place and a less numerous people, it was easy to be invaded and occupied! If we were a whore-house, we wouldn't have been able to retain our language and cultural identity for so many thousands of years, despite all the conquering and oppression! It is your right not to want to regard yourself as a Cypriot, but a Turk, but you have no right to claim that we Cypriots are the products of a prostitute motherland. Make sure first that you are not the product of a prostitute mother, before talking about anyone else!
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