Cyprus-Forum.com

[paliometoxo]

we do exist... us cypriots just half our land stolen by turks who think its theirs

[miltiades]

Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

There is nothing complicated about this matter yet many are seemingly still confused. Indigenous means originating or occurring naturally in an area or environment.

The Turkish Cypriot people are the REMNANTS of the Ottoman invasion so there is NOTHING indigenous about them.

They DO NOT ORIGINATE and HAVE NOT OCCURRED NATURALLY from/on Cyprus but instead they first came to Cyprus UNINVITED in 1571.

Every single Turkish Cypriot should RECOGNISE, ACCEPT, and MEMORIZE the basic FACTS of Cyprus which are:

1. The Greek Cypriots are the ONLY indigenous people on the island of Cyprus.

2. The Greek Cypriots have a history on Cyprus spanning 10,000 years.

3. The oldest Greek Cypriot settlement found is older than that of anything ever found in Turkey or Greece.

Anyone who calls himself a CYPRIOT and expects to have any credibility and respect should first start by getting their basic facts right about Cyprus and that includes you VP.

Regards, GR.

wkae up GR, it's 2007. the turks are there, and they aren't leaving.
what is so wrong with co-existing? yes, i know some of you will point out that i livce in a country that was once owned by our native americans. and yes, we have more crime than you do in cyprus, but we have a heck of alot more people per capita. and still we manage to get along, and celebrate everyone's heritage, without having to build a wall.
the greeks are there, the turks are there. i have known both people, and they are both wonderful races. why do you have to keep bringing up something aht happened in the ottoman empire? you can't change history, so why not embrace it, acknowledge it, and MOVE ON already. it's the only way to the cypriot solution. instead, all i hear about is how this race was there first, no that one was. you both have good points. get over it, get on with it, stop worrying about it.
i love you all, the GC and the TC. i would love nothing more than to see peace, at last, and acceptance.

You wouldn't be saying that if this happened to the US.
But just like any other American what happens outside your box is ok.
And this is coming from a country which only relatively recently abolished slavery of black people.
Well done America. Primitive bunch you are.

You had a freaking Archbishop as your ultimate leader until a few decades ago (and unfortunately forced it upon us aswell), which is what something the Western world stopped doing essentially with the end of the dark age. You are the one to preach aren`t you...?

The people were ignorant. They believe what they were told. Today Makarios is considered by the majority as a hero where in fact he was just a retarded idiot who did nothing right and brought this upon Cyprus.

And speaking about being one to preach, your intelligence and interpretation is evident by targeting a forum member and labelling it such that as I was somehow involved in it.

A clap for you
Where are you from?

This goes to all GCs: Perhaps I don`t acknowledge as often as I should (and that is my mistake) but we, TCs, have made some very stupid mistakes in this whole conflict and by no means angels in Cyprus. We have inflicted wounds to our GC brothers that we should never have. I never denied this and never do. It is necessary that we fight for our rights as TCs, but at the same time it breaks my heart that I even have to defend them to people that we managed to live for so long in peace and harmony. Pain does not know religion, ethnicity or nationality. I hope this will all end one day.

Join us Murataga , the true Cypriots are awaiting for you. To us , all Cypriots are just that , Cypriots .
Our allegiance is to our nation , your nation muratanga is my nation , the ground that I want to be my final resting place is also yours . Together we can find a solution and live peacefully alongside each other just as we did years ago and our parents and grandparents before us.

[Kifeas]

What is relevant to THIS THREAD is that the Turks/Ottomans are NOT indigenous to Cyprus.

Their exact indigenousness is their problem entirely, Anatolian or otherwise, and they can always start a dedicated thread to figure that out if they wish.

The main point of my earlier postings was precisely that it is not possible to identify "exact indigenousness' [sic]

Put it another way with some examples :

"In 1500 Family X lived in Paphos. Three generations later (say in 1560), Family Member X3 - a Greek speaking, Christian, merchant - moves to Venice for business reasons. He, for it is a he, decides to settle and marry in Venice. After all Cyprus by 1570 had fallen to the Ottoman empire and he though his prospects better in Venice. Ten (!) generations later, where intermarriage has, against the odds, been mostly amongst other Cypriot Venetians, Family Member X10 - Italian speaking atheist - in 1963 visits Cyprus, loves the place and settles and marries. Generation X11 is born in Cyprus. Is daughter X11.2 an indigenous Cypriot ?

In 1500 Family Y lived in Paphos, and they could trace their local roots back to 1250. Three generations later (say in 1575), Family Member Y3 - a Greek speaking, Orthodox, merchant - moves to Salonika for business reasons. He, for it is also a he, decides to settle and marry in Salonika. 8 generations later in 1922, where intermarriage has been mostly amongst others of Salonika including Orthodox, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Protestant - Family Member Y10 now a Greek speaking Muslim is 'transferred' to Anatolia. In 1983 Family Member Y13 moves from Antalya and 're-settles' in Cyprus and marries a Cypriot woman. Is generation X14 born in Cyprus. indigenous Cypriot ?

In 1500 Family Z, just arrived from Alexandria, settle in Kyrenia. They are Muslim, Greek and Quranic Arabic speakers. Generation after generation they stay in and around Kyrenia. Generation Z14 entirely Greek speaking, some Orthodox, some downright atheist, in 1930, after loyally serving the British colonial administration, move to London leaving generation Z13 back in Cyprus, who all die (of natural causes) by 1959. Is generation Z14 and Z15 - speaking only estuary English, never having crossed the English Channel never mind visited Cyprus - indigenous Cypriot ?"

In short, how does one become an indigenous Cypriot ? When does one 'lose it ' ? How does one lose it ? Is there a stopwatch or clock which starts ticking and stops ticking when a person is in Cyprus, and where the accumulated and lost time of the fathers is inherited or disinherited from the sons to the Nth generation ? How does this claim to indigenity work ? Can I buy some time - a kind of Cyprus time-share - if I've not got enough to meet your indigeneity criteria ? And who would I buy this from and what's the charge rate ?

As a matter of interest, those who make the indigenist argument might have a stronger case if they were able to identify a "pure" Cypriot indigenous family as far back in time as possible. My guess is that it would be next to impossible to trace any family back to earlier than the end of the sixteenth century. But I admit that that is just a guess. But what I'm more sure of is that one would not be able to find any "pure", undeviating, unchanged family line. However I'd be glad to proved wrong on this matter of interest. (And just in case anyone thinks that I'm unfairly picking on Cyprus and Cypriots, I'm not : I'd make a similar argument against Turkish, Greek, British, French, Israeli, German, etc indigenists).

You see if you can't become an indigenous Cypriot (by length of stay in Cyprus) and/or you can't lose being an indigenous Cypriot (by being away from Cyprus), then the mathematics of demography and reproduction must mean that either WE ARE ALL INDIGENOUS CYPRIOTS - the entire world that is, or THERE ARE NO INDIGENOUS CYPRIOTS anywhere in the world.

The problem with the "indigenist" argument is that it is based on a completely false premise, and invites a reductio ad absurdum response.

[/quote]


Lupusdiavoli, you seem to be spot on in your analysis! It is for this reason that the Greek Cypriots cannot claim any rights in Cyprus, simply because they cannot claim to be the indigenous people! They are in fact invadors, occupiers and colonizers! The mainland Turks are perfectly legitimate to have liberated at least the northern part of Cyprus (hopefully they will soon liberate the rest of Cyprus) from the for nearly 4 millenniums illegitimate, brutal and oppressive Greek Cypriot occupation of that part of the island; and to have helped the only real indigenous population of this country, the for 400 years enslaved Turks of Cyprus, to finally achieve their freedom and independence!

After reading your very scientific analysis, I as a GC have at last also become convinced that I was not ethnically cleansed from my ancestral lands in the north of Cyprus, and none of my human rights (what a dirty term) have being violated; but in fact I was legitimately evicted for being an illegal occupier of the Turk’s now liberated homeland!

[Pyrpolizer]

GR my friend I think we better concentrate on the REASON you started this topic of whether the TCs are indigenous to Cyprus or not.

The point of this thread dear Pyro is that eversince and during the Annan plan evaluation & referendum period people like Erdogan and Gul had started to attack the Cypriot identity with statements like…“So many invaders ruled Cyprus that there’s no Cypriot left!” …and other similar comments and even Denktash made his infamous comment… “The only Cypriot is the Cyprus donkey!” (NB: These are not exact quotes)

The Turkish external policy contains a systematic campaign to DESTROY THE CYPRIOT IDENTITY because it serves their interests to paint a picture of a bastardized island having no indigenous people, no culture, no history, a desolate “rock” for the taking which led to the claims and quarrels between Greece and Turkey!

By undermining the Greek Cypriot connection to Cyprus they are hoping that the world will treat Cyprus as something “shareable” between the closest “civilizations” when in actual fact Cyprus had settlements and THUS A CIVILIZATION WAY BEFORE THEY EVER DID!!!

It should be said that both Greece and Turkey are guilty of this crime against Cyprus. They are guilty for the brainwashing of our people in the past into thinking that nothing significant had ever happened on Cyprus and that they are a “lost” people in need of a bigger brother. People not too long ago were too uneducated to question their history and the few that did had no sources to learn from anyway and besides “big brother” always had the answers for them!

When you strip (hide/pervert/modify) a people of their history and thus their inheritance what do you get? An identity crisis that’s what! No problem... Greece and Turkey would reply you can have ours!

Now do you people see the CRUX of the Cyprus problem???

It’s the CYPRIOT IDENTITY getting battered by Greece and Turkey for centuries!

Regards, GR.

True but have you promoted the CYPRIOT IDENTITY in this topic, and if yes how? Imo you did exactly the opposite.

[halil]

Copperline welcome to the forum- I like your posts.

GR my friend I think we better concentrate on the REASON you started this topic of whether the TCs are indigenous to Cyprus or not. You said the TCs base their partition claims because of their assumption (right or wrong I really don't care) that they are indigenous. I don't think this is the basis of the reasoning the TC partitionists (shit tell me what's wrong with my spelling of partitionist and why this spell checker bothers me all the time ) -where was I?

Ok I repeat

I don't think this is the basis of the reasoning the TC partitionists base their wanting of partition. Let me explain, how I think, their reasoning goes:

We are decendents of the Ottomans. The Ottomans got Cyprus by force so it was theirs. Cyprus was in the possession of the Ottomans until 1878 when they just lend it to the British, but the British cheated and finally made it theirs. The Turkish State is what is left from the Ottoman empire, so after the British would leave they should actually return Cyprus to Turkey. In NO WAY should it be given to Greece even if it is inhabited by 82% Greeks. In no way we the ex-proud owners and rulers, the EFFENDIMS (that's what they assume they were) we will accept to be ruled by the Greeks or the GCs. We want OUR OWN PART OF CYPRUS AT THE VERY LEAST.

I might not be very accurate in my summary, but I really don't see indigenousness anywhere in the picture.

So unless there is another reason we are discussing this matter (which I would like to hear) then what is the point?

İ agree with u Pyrpolizer......... almost u got it ........

[Murataga]

Murataga, let’s approach the issue from a different perspective…

You deny that we the Greek Cypriots are the indigenous Cypriots so...

Please explain and provide evidence as to what happened to the indigenous Cypriots. Where are they today? and if according to your theories, they no longer exist then please explain when and why they died/became extinct!

As you again can not answer you are making your third attempt to save yourself. You can approach it from any perspective you wish to save yourself from your self-inflicted misery here, but I hardly believe that it will do you any good at this point in time. I don’t care about what happened to the people that lived here before you came. The fact that matters is: (1) you came from mainland Greece as Greeks after others were here (much less than 10k years as you`ve lied), (2) you came here in great masses (heavily outnumbering the indigenous people). Since than, you lived as Greeks, identified yourself as Greeks, spoke Greek, chose the Greek religion, lived the Greek way of life, embraced your Greek heritage, you sing the Greek anthem , your allegiance lies with Greece and you recently tried to hand the island over to Greece at the expense of exterminating the TCs, while still trying to enforce Hellenism over us, as your leader openly defines you and your cause in Cyprus as defending and promoting Hellenism:

...President of the Republic of Cyprus was elsewhere on July 14, 2006, while visiting Greece. In his speech to the Greek head of state, President Papadopoulos stated loyally: “We [Cyprus] do not want, nor do we seek to transfer the weight of our problems to the shoulders of Greece. But, we do want our Greek brothers to realise that we in Cyprus, as we resist Turkish expansionism and fight for the national and physical survival of Greek Hellenism, are forward defenders of Hellenism in its widest meaning and dimension.'

Indigenous people had nothing to do with the Hellenism which you lived by for all these centuries. You have failed and you have failed miserably on this thread, inflicting nothing but humiliation upon yourself and putting down Cypriotism. You tried to jump from definitions to other definitions which you tailored to fit your racist ideology as you have been exposed with your lies and inaccurate conclusions. Since you will not take my word, try hearing Pyrpolizer`s very wise call:

True but have you promoted the CYPRIOT IDENTITY in this topic, and if yes how? Imo you did exactly the opposite.

As far as I am concerned, this discussion has turned into your pathetic attempts to save your face and it is over.

[Kifeas]

Can anyone else explain to Murataga in any better way than I can do, that he just talks nonsense and rubbish?

First of all, he is incapable of realizing that Hellenism is not a term or a concept associated exclusively with modern Greece as a nation-state. He is such an ill-educated person that cannot understand the fact that the concept “Hellenism” is a rather cultural one that has no boundaries and is therefore a universal one. He cannot understated that whenever a GC talks about Hellenism in Cyprus or Cypriot Hellenism, he doesn’t necessarily imply that Cyprus is part of Greece, as such, or that mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots are both members of the same nation-state; but instead he only refers to specifically one of the main components of Cypriot cultural identity -in fact the major one, as it is expressed through the cultural identity of the Greek Cypriot society. He cannot understand that in the same way that there is a mainland Greek and Cypriot Hellenism, there are also American, Australian, Canadian, south African Hellenisms, and the only relationship between them is only cultural, and not a political one. He is so narrow headed; that whenever he reads the term Hellenism, his mind immediately associates it with mainland Modern Greek nation state.

He cannot understand that the term Cypriotism inevitably includes in it the Hellenic cultural element or characteristic of the Greek Cypriot society, since it is the oldest and biggest component of the Cypriot population; in the same way that the Turkish Cypriot Turkic cultural element constitutes a component of this same Cypriot cultural identity that we have come to refer to it as "Cypriotism."

Finally, he cannot comprehend that the term Hellenism or Hellenic is not something inherently negative, alienating or hostile to his own Turkic sub-cultural identity, but only a complimentary one to his broader Cypriot cultural identity.

[Get Real!]

I don’t care about what happened to the people that lived here before you came.

Of course you don’t care you little clown because they are MY ancestors and you are imported here remember? Your lack of interest in the history and people of Cyprus is only natural; had you been indigenous you would’ve cared!

you came from mainland Greece as Greeks after others were here

You conveniently assume that EVERY GC in Cyprus today came and found a vacant Cyprus because the indigenous Cypriot inhabitants mysteriously died and disappeared! You uneducated little twerp, you have the audacity to pervert history even!!!

Indigenous people had nothing to do with the Hellenism which you lived by for all these centuries

For your information it’s the indigenous Cypriot people that EMBRACED Hellenism by adopting their language, culture, religion, etc. Why don’t you read Cyprus History books instead of living in cuckoo land?

You have failed and you have failed miserably on this thread, inflicting nothing but humiliation upon yourself and putting down Cypriotism

You pathetic little hillbilly, it’s the likes of YOU, Denktash, and Erdogan, that INVENT MYTHOLOGY to disassociate the Greek Cypriots from their country, history, and inheritance, and that’s EXACTLY what I’ve been trying to warn my compatriots about in this thread but unfortunately some of them are seemingly half asleep.

One thing you can be sure of is that you cannot fool people like me, Kifeas, and Piratis, and we’ll be right here EVERY TIME ready to WHACK your snotty nose whenever you post your diarrhea.

There is no place in Cyprus for those who do not respect the history, inheritance, and indigenousness of the Greek Cypriots and don’t ever forget that you uneducated little punk.

No regards!

[Pyrpolizer]

...President of the Republic of Cyprus was elsewhere on July 14, 2006, while visiting Greece. In his speech to the Greek head of state, President Papadopoulos stated loyally: “We [Cyprus] do not want, nor do we seek to transfer the weight of our problems to the shoulders of Greece. But, we do want our Greek brothers to realise that we in Cyprus, as we resist Turkish expansionism and fight for the national and physical survival of Greek Hellenism, are forward defenders of Hellenism in its widest meaning and dimension

Phew... The word Hellenism once again causing misunderstandings.

Murataga, I am not arguing here, I will just explain you.

1)In Greek the word "Greek" as an adjective spells "Hellinismos"
There is NO OTHER WORD.

2)So it doesn't make sense for papadopoulos to have said we are defending the Greek Hellenism=The Greek Greekness= The Hellenic Hellenism .... in Cyprus. There is no such thing it's meaningless

What he said -and I know this because he and every other president before him said the same thing is we are defending the Cypriot Hellenism
If you followed my explanations above then

Cypriot Hellenism= The Greek Cypriots

Simple really. Next time you see similar intentionally bad translations from Greek, invlolving the word hellenic, just have these in mind, and if you are in doubt just ask. Remember in Greek the word Greek is "hellenic" And GC = (H)ellenoKyprios

[Pyrpolizer]

Can anyone else explain to Murataga in any better way than I can do, that he just talks nonsense and rubbish?

First of all, he is incapable of realizing that Hellenism is not a term or a concept associated exclusively with modern Greece as a nation-state. He is such an ill-educated person that cannot understand the fact that the concept “Hellenism” is a rather cultural one that has no boundaries and is therefore a universal one. He cannot understated that whenever a GC talks about Hellenism in Cyprus or Cypriot Hellenism, he doesn’t necessarily imply that Cyprus is part of Greece, as such, or that mainland Greeks and Greek Cypriots are both members of the same nation-state; but instead he only refers to specifically one of the main components of Cypriot cultural identity -in fact the major one, as it is expressed through the cultural identity of the Greek Cypriot society. He cannot understand that in the same way that there is a mainland Greek and Cypriot Hellenism, there are also American, Australian, Canadian, south African Hellenisms, and the only relationship between them is only cultural, and not a political one. He is so narrow headed; that whenever he reads the term Hellenism, his mind immediately associates it with mainland Modern Greek nation state.

He cannot understand that the term Cypriotism inevitably includes in it the Hellenic cultural element or characteristic of the Greek Cypriot society, since it is the oldest and biggest component of the Cypriot population; in the same way that the Turkish Cypriot Turkic cultural element constitutes a component of this same Cypriot cultural identity that we have come to refer to it as "Cypriotism."

Finally, he cannot comprehend that the term Hellenism or Hellenic is not something inherently negative, alienating or hostile to his own Turkic sub-cultural identity, but only a complimentary one to his broader Cypriot cultural identity.

Kifeas Murataga quoted Greek Hellenism, not Cypriot Hellenism
I don't know where he got that from, but it is obvious the journalist who translated it made sure he distorted what was said in Greek not only once but twice!