Cyprus-Forum.com

[Spetz]

Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

There is nothing complicated about this matter yet many are seemingly still confused. Indigenous means originating or occurring naturally in an area or environment.

The Turkish Cypriot people are the REMNANTS of the Ottoman invasion so there is NOTHING indigenous about them.

They DO NOT ORIGINATE and HAVE NOT OCCURRED NATURALLY from/on Cyprus but instead they first came to Cyprus UNINVITED in 1571.

Every single Turkish Cypriot should RECOGNISE, ACCEPT, and MEMORIZE the basic FACTS of Cyprus which are:

1. The Greek Cypriots are the ONLY indigenous people on the island of Cyprus.

2. The Greek Cypriots have a history on Cyprus spanning 10,000 years.

3. The oldest Greek Cypriot settlement found is older than that of anything ever found in Turkey or Greece.

Anyone who calls himself a CYPRIOT and expects to have any credibility and respect should first start by getting their basic facts right about Cyprus and that includes you VP.

Regards, GR.

wkae up GR, it's 2007. the turks are there, and they aren't leaving.
what is so wrong with co-existing? yes, i know some of you will point out that i livce in a country that was once owned by our native americans. and yes, we have more crime than you do in cyprus, but we have a heck of alot more people per capita. and still we manage to get along, and celebrate everyone's heritage, without having to build a wall.
the greeks are there, the turks are there. i have known both people, and they are both wonderful races. why do you have to keep bringing up something aht happened in the ottoman empire? you can't change history, so why not embrace it, acknowledge it, and MOVE ON already. it's the only way to the cypriot solution. instead, all i hear about is how this race was there first, no that one was. you both have good points. get over it, get on with it, stop worrying about it.
i love you all, the GC and the TC. i would love nothing more than to see peace, at last, and acceptance.

You wouldn't be saying that if this happened to the US.
But just like any other American what happens outside your box is ok.
And this is coming from a country which only relatively recently abolished slavery of black people.
Well done America. Primitive bunch you are.

You had a freaking Archbishop as your ultimate leader until a few decades ago (and unfortunately forced it upon us aswell), which is what something the Western world stopped doing essentially with the end of the dark age. You are the one to preach aren`t you...?

The people were ignorant. They believe what they were told. Today Makarios is considered by the majority as a hero where in fact he was just a retarded idiot who did nothing right and brought this upon Cyprus.

And speaking about being one to preach, your intelligence and interpretation is evident by targeting a forum member and labelling it such that as I was somehow involved in it.

A clap for you
Where are you from?

[Murataga]

Murataga, it appears that you do not understand the meaning of the word “indigenous”.

When Australia talks of her indigenous population she is referring to the Aboriginals. When the US talks of their indigenous population they are referring to the American Indians.

The white American is NOT indigenous to the US and neither is the white Australian. By the same token the Turkish Cypriot is a descendant of the Ottomans who again ARE NOT indigenous to Cyprus but Anatolia.

These are basic fundamentals of indigenousness agreed worldwide so please stop wasting everyone’s time with your unfounded theories. The wikipedia states…

“…any ethnic group who inhabit the geographic region with which they have the earliest historical connection”

…to describe who is indigenous and nothing could be clearer.

Let's repeat that in case you still don't understand...

"they have the earliest historical connection"

The Greek Cypriots have the earliest historical connection to Cyprus so they are the UNDISPUTED INDIGINOUS PEOPLE OF CYPRUS!

And all you can do Murataga is pour yourself a glass of vinegar and drink it!



CASE CLOSED!

It has been agreed by many members of this forum on numerous occasions (by yourself aswell if I am not mistaken) that it is possible to write anything on Wikipedia without scientific knowledge/support, hence it does not constitute the authoritative source. However, even Wikipedia before mentioning the “cropped” part of you sentence starts with ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples ):

The term indigenous people has no universal, standard or fixed definition, but can be used….

This fraudulent conduct alone speaks a lot about you.

Even at this defintiion you still do not have the earliest historical connection in Cyprus as the Myceneans arrived in 1200BC and the history in Cyprus is spans 10000 years back which the Myceneans had no relevance, contact, relation or existence at such interval in Cyprus. So you fail again.

But let`s for the sake of the conversation we accept this definition... This latest definition (to save yourself) of the word “indigenous” is vague and can be highly misrepresented. For example: according to this mentality you could call the white Americans “indigenous” if they managed to have no Native Indians living today, or white Australians indigenous if they managed to have no Aborgouines living in Australia today. An even more striking example: you would be fighting for our, TCs`, indigenousness with this mentality if the Ottomans made sure the Rum Cemaati (the GC community) were wiped out of Cyprus (which obviously was an easily conceivable option had the Ottomans decided to do so given their circumstances at the time). Another example I was planning to put here which alexiS beat me to it: if there was a Phoenician minority in Cyprus today, unassimilated and speaking a unique language, would the Greek Cypriots be considered non indigenous?

You started by giving a definition of “indigenous” claiming that TCs aren’t. You have been shown the fallacy of your racist claim and now you change the definition you had at the beginning and start fighting to at least save the GCs title as indigenous- yet fail miserably again.

Here is the definition from webster dictionary:

having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment

Here is the defiition you put at the begining:

originating or occurring naturally in an area or environment

along with the lie:

The Greek Cypriots have a history on Cyprus spanning 10,000 years.

You lied about the timeline and have been prooven that according to the definition indigineous you do not qualofy. You live here as we do, but you do not originate here as neither do we. By any scientific definition pertaining to the Cyprus history, you will never be able to deny the indigenousness of the TCs if you attempt make the claim for the GCs.

Enjoy

[Pyrpolizer]

Copperline welcome to the forum- I like your posts.

GR my friend I think we better concentrate on the REASON you started this topic of whether the TCs are indigenous to Cyprus or not. You said the TCs base their partition claims because of their assumption (right or wrong I really don't care) that they are indigenous. I don't think this is the basis of the reasoning the TC partitionists (shit tell me what's wrong with my spelling of partitionist and why this spell checker bothers me all the time ) -where was I?

Ok I repeat

I don't think this is the basis of the reasoning the TC partitionists base their wanting of partition. Let me explain, how I think, their reasoning goes:

We are decendents of the Ottomans. The Ottomans got Cyprus by force so it was theirs. Cyprus was in the possession of the Ottomans until 1878 when they just lend it to the British, but the British cheated and finally made it theirs. The Turkish State is what is left from the Ottoman empire, so after the British would leave they should actually return Cyprus to Turkey. In NO WAY should it be given to Greece even if it is inhabited by 82% Greeks. In no way we the ex-proud owners and rulers, the EFFENDIMS (that's what they assume they were) we will accept to be ruled by the Greeks or the GCs. We want OUR OWN PART OF CYPRUS AT THE VERY LEAST.

I might not be very accurate in my summary, but I really don't see indigenousness anywhere in the picture.

So unless there is another reason we are discussing this matter (which I would like to hear) then what is the point?

[Murataga]

Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

There is nothing complicated about this matter yet many are seemingly still confused. Indigenous means originating or occurring naturally in an area or environment.

The Turkish Cypriot people are the REMNANTS of the Ottoman invasion so there is NOTHING indigenous about them.

They DO NOT ORIGINATE and HAVE NOT OCCURRED NATURALLY from/on Cyprus but instead they first came to Cyprus UNINVITED in 1571.

Every single Turkish Cypriot should RECOGNISE, ACCEPT, and MEMORIZE the basic FACTS of Cyprus which are:

1. The Greek Cypriots are the ONLY indigenous people on the island of Cyprus.

2. The Greek Cypriots have a history on Cyprus spanning 10,000 years.

3. The oldest Greek Cypriot settlement found is older than that of anything ever found in Turkey or Greece.

Anyone who calls himself a CYPRIOT and expects to have any credibility and respect should first start by getting their basic facts right about Cyprus and that includes you VP.

Regards, GR.

wkae up GR, it's 2007. the turks are there, and they aren't leaving.
what is so wrong with co-existing? yes, i know some of you will point out that i livce in a country that was once owned by our native americans. and yes, we have more crime than you do in cyprus, but we have a heck of alot more people per capita. and still we manage to get along, and celebrate everyone's heritage, without having to build a wall.
the greeks are there, the turks are there. i have known both people, and they are both wonderful races. why do you have to keep bringing up something aht happened in the ottoman empire? you can't change history, so why not embrace it, acknowledge it, and MOVE ON already. it's the only way to the cypriot solution. instead, all i hear about is how this race was there first, no that one was. you both have good points. get over it, get on with it, stop worrying about it.
i love you all, the GC and the TC. i would love nothing more than to see peace, at last, and acceptance.

You wouldn't be saying that if this happened to the US.
But just like any other American what happens outside your box is ok.
And this is coming from a country which only relatively recently abolished slavery of black people.
Well done America. Primitive bunch you are.

You had a freaking Archbishop as your ultimate leader until a few decades ago (and unfortunately forced it upon us aswell), which is what something the Western world stopped doing essentially with the end of the dark age. You are the one to preach aren`t you...?

The people were ignorant. They believe what they were told. Today Makarios is considered by the majority as a hero where in fact he was just a retarded idiot who did nothing right and brought this upon Cyprus.

And speaking about being one to preach, your intelligence and interpretation is evident by targeting a forum member and labelling it such that as I was somehow involved in it.

A clap for you
Where are you from?

This goes to all GCs: Perhaps I don`t acknowledge as often as I should (and that is my mistake) but we, TCs, have made some very stupid mistakes in this whole conflict and by no means angels in Cyprus. We have inflicted wounds to our GC brothers that we should never have. I never denied this and never do. It is necessary that we fight for our rights as TCs, but at the same time it breaks my heart that I even have to defend them to people that we managed to live for so long in peace and harmony. Pain does not know religion, ethnicity or nationality. I hope this will all end one day.

[Murataga]

I`m going to have to call it a day. Bye for now.

[Pyrpolizer]

This goes to all GCs: Perhaps I don`t acknowledge as often as I should (and that is my mistake) but we, TCs, have made some very stupid mistakes in this whole conflict and by no means angels in Cyprus. We have inflicted wounds to our GC brothers that we should never have. I never denied this and never do. It is necessary that we fight for our rights as TCs, but at the same time it breaks my heart that I even have to defend them to people that we managed to live for so long in peace and harmony. Pain does not know religion, ethnicity or nationality. I hope this will all end one day.

Well said Murataga.

[CopperLine]

What is relevant to THIS THREAD is that the Turks/Ottomans are NOT indigenous to Cyprus.

Their exact indigenousness is their problem entirely, Anatolian or otherwise, and they can always start a dedicated thread to figure that out if they wish.

The main point of my earlier postings was precisely that it is not possible to identify "exact indigenousness' [sic]

Put it another way with some examples :

"In 1500 Family X lived in Paphos. Three generations later (say in 1560), Family Member X3 - a Greek speaking, Christian, merchant - moves to Venice for business reasons. He, for it is a he, decides to settle and marry in Venice. After all Cyprus by 1570 had fallen to the Ottoman empire and he though his prospects better in Venice. Ten (!) generations later, where intermarriage has, against the odds, been mostly amongst other Cypriot Venetians, Family Member X10 - Italian speaking atheist - in 1963 visits Cyprus, loves the place and settles and marries. Generation X11 is born in Cyprus. Is daughter X11.2 an indigenous Cypriot ?

In 1500 Family Y lived in Paphos, and they could trace their local roots back to 1250. Three generations later (say in 1575), Family Member Y3 - a Greek speaking, Orthodox, merchant - moves to Salonika for business reasons. He, for it is also a he, decides to settle and marry in Salonika. 8 generations later in 1922, where intermarriage has been mostly amongst others of Salonika including Orthodox, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Protestant - Family Member Y10 now a Greek speaking Muslim is 'transferred' to Anatolia. In 1983 Family Member Y13 moves from Antalya and 're-settles' in Cyprus and marries a Cypriot woman. Is generation X14 born in Cyprus. indigenous Cypriot ?

In 1500 Family Z, just arrived from Alexandria, settle in Kyrenia. They are Muslim, Greek and Quranic Arabic speakers. Generation after generation they stay in and around Kyrenia. Generation Z14 entirely Greek speaking, some Orthodox, some downright atheist, in 1930, after loyally serving the British colonial administration, move to London leaving generation Z13 back in Cyprus, who all die (of natural causes) by 1959. Is generation Z14 and Z15 - speaking only estuary English, never having crossed the English Channel never mind visited Cyprus - indigenous Cypriot ?"

In short, how does one become an indigenous Cypriot ? When does one 'lose it ' ? How does one lose it ? Is there a stopwatch or clock which starts ticking and stops ticking when a person is in Cyprus, and where the accumulated and lost time of the fathers is inherited or disinherited from the sons to the Nth generation ? How does this claim to indigenity work ? Can I buy some time - a kind of Cyprus time-share - if I've not got enough to meet your indigeneity criteria ? And who would I buy this from and what's the charge rate ?

As a matter of interest, those who make the indigenist argument might have a stronger case if they were able to identify a "pure" Cypriot indigenous family as far back in time as possible. My guess is that it would be next to impossible to trace any family back to earlier than the end of the sixteenth century. But I admit that that is just a guess. But what I'm more sure of is that one would not be able to find any "pure", undeviating, unchanged family line. However I'd be glad to proved wrong on this matter of interest. (And just in case anyone thinks that I'm unfairly picking on Cyprus and Cypriots, I'm not : I'd make a similar argument against Turkish, Greek, British, French, Israeli, German, etc indigenists).

You see if you can't become an indigenous Cypriot (by length of stay in Cyprus) and/or you can't lose being an indigenous Cypriot (by being away from Cyprus), then the mathematics of demography and reproduction must mean that either WE ARE ALL INDIGENOUS CYPRIOTS - the entire world that is, or THERE ARE NO INDIGENOUS CYPRIOTS anywhere in the world.

The problem with the "indigenist" argument is that it is based on a completely false premise, and invites a reductio ad absurdum response.


[/quote]

[Get Real!]

GR my friend I think we better concentrate on the REASON you started this topic of whether the TCs are indigenous to Cyprus or not.

The point of this thread dear Pyro is that eversince and during the Annan plan evaluation & referendum period people like Erdogan and Gul had started to attack the Cypriot identity with statements like…“So many invaders ruled Cyprus that there’s no Cypriot left!” …and other similar comments and even Denktash made his infamous comment… “The only Cypriot is the Cyprus donkey!” (NB: These are not exact quotes)

The Turkish external policy contains a systematic campaign to DESTROY THE CYPRIOT IDENTITY because it serves their interests to paint a picture of a bastardized island having no indigenous people, no culture, no history, a desolate “rock” for the taking which led to the claims and quarrels between Greece and Turkey!

By undermining the Greek Cypriot connection to Cyprus they are hoping that the world will treat Cyprus as something “shareable” between the closest “civilizations” when in actual fact Cyprus had settlements and THUS A CIVILIZATION WAY BEFORE THEY EVER DID!!!

It should be said that both Greece and Turkey are guilty of this crime against Cyprus. They are guilty for the brainwashing of our people in the past into thinking that nothing significant had ever happened on Cyprus and that they are a “lost” people in need of a bigger brother. People not too long ago were too uneducated to question their history and the few that did had no sources to learn from anyway and besides “big brother” always had the answers for them!

When you strip (hide/pervert/modify) a people of their history and thus their inheritance what do you get? An identity crisis that’s what! No problem... Greece and Turkey would reply you can have ours!

Now do you people see the CRUX of the Cyprus problem???

It’s the CYPRIOT IDENTITY getting battered by Greece and Turkey for centuries!

Regards, GR.

[Piratis]

mathematics of demography and reproduction must mean that either WE ARE ALL INDIGENOUS CYPRIOTS - the entire world that is, or THERE ARE NO INDIGENOUS CYPRIOTS anywhere in the world.

According to Murataga Turks didn't mix with Cypriots. So if we take that as a fact, even if the rest of the world were Cypriots, the Turks wouldn't

So either there is just one Cyprus people , or if there are two, then the indigenous are everybody else except the Turks. (always based on what Murataga said)

[Get Real!]

Murataga, let’s approach the issue from a different perspective…

You deny that we the Greek Cypriots are the indigenous Cypriots so...

Please explain and provide evidence as to what happened to the indigenous Cypriots. Where are they today? and if according to your theories, they no longer exist then please explain when and why they died/became extinct!