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Are Turkish Cypriots indigenous to Cyprus?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:40 pm

Murataga wrote:
alexISS wrote:From wikipedia on indigenousness:

"indigenous people has no universal, standard or fixed definition, but can be used about any ethnic group who inhabit the geographic region with which they have the earliest historical connection"

Between the GCs and the TCs, which ethnic group has the earliest historical connection with the island of Cyprus?

So, in conclusion, both GCs and TCs are indigenous to Cyprus, but the GCs are more indigenous than the TCs... :lol:


See the first post on this thread for the defintion of "indigineous"; not that I stand behind it... but it is what is being acclaimed wrongfully for the history and the status of GCs. And it has been exposed as such.

I have no problem with the fact and do not deny that Greeks settlers were here before the Ottoman settlers. But when you start claiming: "originating or occurring naturally", that is another ball game.


Re pig-head Murataga, the Greek Cypriots are the mixture (the blending)of the people that used to live in Cyprus before any Greek colonisation (which by the way was more cultural than physical,) and all those settlers, be it ancient Greeks or others that came here in the meantime. The end product was what the ottomans found in Cyprus as the indigenous people, when they invaded and occupied Cyprus in 1571!

Therefore, pig-head Mutargaa, the GCs are in-fact the physical (natural) continuation of the indigenous people of Cyprus that had existed since the beginning of human habitation on this island, be it 10,000 or 15,000 or 20,000 years ago! Is this so difficult for your little brain to understand it, or you only know how to do cheap and foolish propaganda inhere!
Last edited by Kifeas on Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby miltiades » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:41 pm

Murataga wrote:
alexISS wrote:From wikipedia on indigenousness:

"indigenous people has no universal, standard or fixed definition, but can be used about any ethnic group who inhabit the geographic region with which they have the earliest historical connection"

Between the GCs and the TCs, which ethnic group has the earliest historical connection with the island of Cyprus?

So, in conclusion, both GCs and TCs are indigenous to Cyprus, but the GCs are more indigenous than the TCs... :lol:


See the first post on this thread for the defintion of "indigineous"; not that I stand behind it... but it is what is being acclaimed wrongfully for the history and the status of GCs. And it has been exposed as such.

I have no problem with the fact and do not deny that Greeks settlers were here before the Ottoman settlers. But when you start claiming: "originating or occurring naturally", that is another ball game.


its like saying that a woman 8 months pregnant is MORE pregnant than a woman that is 3 months pregnant , or to put it another a person who died 1000 years ago is MORE dead than someone who died early this morning.
The fact of the matter is that the T/Cs as well as the Armenians as well as the G/Cs are indigenous people of Cyprus.
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Postby Murataga » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:46 pm

miltiades wrote:
Murataga wrote:
alexISS wrote:From wikipedia on indigenousness:

"indigenous people has no universal, standard or fixed definition, but can be used about any ethnic group who inhabit the geographic region with which they have the earliest historical connection"

Between the GCs and the TCs, which ethnic group has the earliest historical connection with the island of Cyprus?

So, in conclusion, both GCs and TCs are indigenous to Cyprus, but the GCs are more indigenous than the TCs... :lol:


See the first post on this thread for the defintion of "indigineous"; not that I stand behind it... but it is what is being acclaimed wrongfully for the history and the status of GCs. And it has been exposed as such.

I have no problem with the fact and do not deny that Greeks settlers were here before the Ottoman settlers. But when you start claiming: "originating or occurring naturally", that is another ball game.


its like saying that a woman 8 months pregnant is MORE pregnant than a woman that is 3 months pregnant , or to put it another a person who died 1000 years ago is MORE dead than someone who died early this morning.
The fact of the matter is that the T/Cs as well as the Armenians as well as the G/Cs are indigenous people of Cyprus.


Couldn`t agree more. Now tell that to Get real! and his gang.
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Postby halil » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:07 pm

be calm my dear friends.this bloody island is big enough for all of us.stop argueing good for nothing.
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:17 pm

halil wrote:be calm my dear friends.this bloody island is big enough for all of us.stop argueing good for nothing.


Halil, how can one be calm in here, with all these provocations from Mutargaa, the perverted mouthpiece of the twisted kemalist propaganda fabric in Cyprus? Only yesterday he was claiming that there is no Cypriot people, no Greek Cypriots or Turkish Cypriots, and no indigenous Cypriot people at all; but only two separate nations that came from the outside, the Turks and the Greeks! Today, the same pig-head, after realizing the stupidity of his twisted arguments, he backed off and now starts claiming completely opposite things!
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Postby miltiades » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:21 pm

halil wrote:be calm my dear friends.this bloody island is big enough for all of us.stop argueing good for nothing.


You tell them Halil ! There is enough beer and wine to go round for all and plenty of souvla halloumi pastourma koupes and loukanika .

Seriously though , if we all addressed and respected each others concerns as Cypriots first all our problems would evaporate.
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Postby CopperLine » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:34 pm

Two parables :

(1) My grandfather's hammer. My grandfather was given a hammer by his father, and the hammer was made up of a metal head and a wooden shaft. Over the years the wooden shaft began to split. So my grandfather replaced the wooden shaft. When my grandfather died my father, a craftsman like his father before him, inherited my grandfather's hammer. Over the years of constant use the head of the hammer become rounded and pitted so my father replaced the head of the hammer. My father died last month and I inherited the hammer. Did I inherit, though, my grandfather's hammer ?

(2) The philosopher Heraclitus (6th century BCE), resident of Ephesus, asked whether one could step in the same river or stream twice since, after all, the water which swirled around your legs on the first occasion was never going to be the same water that would swirl around your legs on a second occasion. If the water is not and can never be the same, Heraclitus reasoned and asked, we cannot call this the same stream or river thus we never step in the same river twice.

What have these two parables got to do with the question of indigeneity ?

There are basically two related strategies pursued by those who insist on the importance of indigeneity. First is the claim to precedence and originality in which people say 'we/I was here first and therefore we/I have first and exclusive claim on this land/property...' Second, a line of succession or hierarchy of claims is established so that those who have 'been here longest', even if not ultimately indigenous, have greater claim than those who have 'been here shorter'.

The trouble with almost all indigenist-based claims is that they are undermined by one or both of the two parables noted at the outset. Virtually all indegenist claims - with the possible exceptions of Australian aboriginals, the Nunavummiut of Nunavut (Canada), and one or two others - don't stand up to historical scrutiny. It is impossible - again with perhaps the odd exception (which proves the rule) - to demonstrate the claimed continuity as some on this topic have tried to do of either 'Turkishness' or 'Greekness' over centuries let alone millenia. To use the metaphors contained in the two parables, the head and the shaft of the hammer have been replaced so many times by each generation that the original hammer was lost way, way back; equally, so much water has passed down the river, the stones in the river bed have shifted, the river banks have change shape, even the course of the river has changed that whilst we think it to be the same river, all its main characteristics are unrecognisable.

But parabales and metaphors aren't necessarily good enough, strong enough to resolve these kinds of problems. So one could look briefly a the definitions of 'Greekness' and 'Turkishness' which indegenists (a form of modern day nationalism) might use.

Let's start with the most notorious, if sadly still powerful claim, of 'blood line'. Is it possible to identify a difference between a Turkish blood type and a Greek blood type ? Answer, no. No self-respecting scientist - biologist, geneticist or haematologist - anywhere in the world can make such a distinction. Fortunately this Nazi 'science' was dismissed and sent to the rubbish-bin of history in the 1940s. Those who continue to speak of Turkish and Greek blood, of Jewish or Christian blood, of Armenian or Macedonian blood, of African or Caucasian blood continue to peddle pure nonsense.

What about continuities of family ? Couldn't we trace a family line back not just decades, but even centuries ? First, in principle, assuming the survival and accuracy of written records this is possible but practically speaking is very difficult to do. Even then families are not neat and discrete units and there is constant cross-marrying between families. If one considers just one moment in, let's say, twelfth century Cyprus, the Lusignan families did not consider themselves French (though the Lusignan line is considered to originate in central France) because, amongst other reasons, there was no notion of France as a nation. Second, families - whether extended or nuclear - rarely see themselves first and foremost as Greek or Turkish or British i.e, national. Most families across history have seen themselves first and foremost as ... well... families, connected usually across three generations (grandparents, parents, grandchildren) very rarely across four generations. The parable of the grandfather's hammer is the most appropriate here. Third, intermarriage between families - some long-term residents of the island, some new arrivals, some temporary visitors, some emigrants, some immigrants - over hundreds of years dissolves the 'purity' of the indigenist family. And if you think that my argument here is ill-founded then you might want to explain (a) the general prohibition in monotheistic religions on incest and (b) the historical fact that reproduction of all families in all societies tends to move outwards i.e, bringing in 'outsiders' and that families which have reproduced internally have tended to collapse and disappear. Hence there is no such thing as an indigenist family.

The next obvious candidate for the indigenist claim is religion. 'Those Turks,' the indigenist Greek might claim, 'are Muslims.' And the indigenist Turk conversely claims that 'Those Greeks, they're all Orthodox'. Apart from the fact that neither claim is accurate, we have to acknowledge that the Ottoman empire was composed of Greek-speaking Muslims and Turkish (and Arabic) speaking Christians. The Byzantine empire was slightly less diverse in its religious and linguistic variety and diversity but the same point obtains. The British empire was tolerant of a variety of religions and languages, even though the official language of empire was English and the monarch/emperor was head of the Church of England. So throughout Cyprus' history for two millenia or so religious identity and profession of faith was *not* tied exclusively to 'Greekness' or 'Turkishness'.

What about language ? And to my mind, this is the nub of the question. The principal identifiable difference between Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots is not blood (total unscientific nonsense), it is not family (inter-marriage over hundreds of years, tendency to reproduce with the outside), and it is not religion, but language. The trouble if for indegenists who want to claim 'I/we always spoke Greek/Turkish' is that this is unlikely to be true past three or four generations. A more accurate portrayal is that different languages, either in succession or in combination were likely to have been spoken or understood by different generations as time went by. Nor, it should be added, do languages stand still. They are in constant changes and development so the Turkish of 17th century Cyprus is likely to be largely not understandable to the 21st century turkish cypriot. The same goes for Greek, just as the same goes for 16th-17th century English of Shakespeare - how many current English speakers complain that they haven't got a clue what is being said when Hamlet or Macbeth speak ... and yet Shakespeare's language is most definitely English.


I'll end this posting on a tangent though. In Spain, especially once it was an EU member and therefore part of a 'europe of nations' (i.e, not just a Europe of state), there has been the rise of language politics such that the regions of Catalunya, Euzkadi (Basque region), Galiza, Asturias, Extremadura, even Leon prosper through the adoption and promotion of different non-Spanish (i.e, non-Castillano) language. These profound linguistic differences have not brought the end of a unified Spanish state, in fact many claim that the differences have served to strengthened the Spanish state.

That in Cyprus there are two (or three, with English) main language groups is not necessarily a recipe for division - on the contrary, it could be the basis of a fruitful unity.


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Postby bigOz » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:43 pm

Kifeas wrote:
halil wrote:be calm my dear friends.this bloody island is big enough for all of us.stop argueing good for nothing.


Halil, how can one be calm in here, with all these provocations from Mutargaa, the perverted mouthpiece of the twisted kemalist propaganda fabric in Cyprus? Only yesterday he was claiming that there is no Cypriot people, no Greek Cypriots or Turkish Cypriots, and no indigenous Cypriot people at all; but only two separate nations that came from the outside, the Turks and the Greeks! Today, the same pig-head, after realizing the stupidity of his twisted arguments, he backed off and now starts claiming completely opposite things!

He did not argue anything different than you or many other GCs who did the same in this forum with regards to the origin or natiojnality of Cypriots! So I guess all the abuse you just hurled must aply to you and some others too!

Furthermore you shoud stop exaggerating and making non-existent claims! What is Kemalism - can you define it for us please? If Kemalism exists as principles laid down by K. ATATURK who was the founder of modern Turkey, it was, is, and will never be addressed as "twisted" by any TC - so stop insulting other nations' revered leaders with venomous abuse. It serves no purpose but generate hatred as well as disrespect for the content of your post!

If you are looking for any "twisted" leaders look nearer home and you might discover a PEADOPHILE by the name of Makarios! :lol:
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Postby Get Real! » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:50 pm

Murataga, it appears that you do not understand the meaning of the word “indigenous”.

When Australia talks of her indigenous population she is referring to the Aboriginals. When the US talks of their indigenous population they are referring to the American Indians.

The white American is NOT indigenous to the US and neither is the white Australian. By the same token the Turkish Cypriot is a descendant of the Ottomans who again ARE NOT indigenous to Cyprus but Anatolia.

These are basic fundamentals of indigenousness agreed worldwide so please stop wasting everyone’s time with your unfounded theories. The wikipedia states…

“…any ethnic group who inhabit the geographic region with which they have the earliest historical connection”

…to describe who is indigenous and nothing could be clearer.

Let's repeat that in case you still don't understand...

"they have the earliest historical connection"

The Greek Cypriots have the earliest historical connection to Cyprus so they are the UNDISPUTED INDIGINOUS PEOPLE OF CYPRUS!

And all you can do Murataga is pour yourself a glass of vinegar and drink it!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

CASE CLOSED!
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Postby alexISS » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:00 pm

Get Real! wrote:By the same token the Turkish Cypriot is a descendant of the Ottomans who again ARE NOT indigenous to Cyprus but Anatolia.


So the Turks are indigenous to Anatolia but not to Cyprus, just because they invaded Cyprus a few years later than Anatolia? According to this logic wouldn't the indigenous Anatolians be Kurds, Armenians and Greeks?

Also, if there was a Phoenician minority in Cyprus today, unassimilated and speaking a unique language, would the Greek Cypriots be considered non indigenous?
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