Cyprus-Forum.com

[bigOz]

alexISS! You are treading on very dangerous ground when you keep talking about the Turks of thrace living a better standard of life than those in Turkey.

Firstly, until recently there had been many talks about the human rights of the Turks in Thrace whose identity in Greece is still denied. The official Greek attitude to the ethnic minorities in Greece that there are none! As far as Greece is concerned they have a "muslim" minority and are often in denial of ethnic Turks who form the majority of occupants in Thrace. I can get you very detailed info on how Turkish minority had/have been persecuted until very recently in Thrace, where there had been very serious human right violations. PLEASE do your own research before asking me to provide you with more info because I've been through this a million times in different forums, and I really do not have the time right now! If you think I am lying I shall provide you with plenty info later on...

Furthermore, income per-ca pita is no indication of the standard of life when comparing two economically different areas such as EU and Turkey. If you have say 20,000 Euros as average income in Greece and perhaps 7000 Euros in Turkey, it does not mean that the people in Greece eat any better! If you consider the cost of living in Greece is between 2 and 3 times more than that in Turkey (more so in most other EU countries), then you can see why the purchasing power of the working people would be almost the same.

As for Greece's economy and your unfair comparison with regards to what is going on in Turkey economically, please note the fol owing:

Greece's economy and mounting debts were in dire straits until it actually joined the EU (as an associate member). OK, so their economy had improved a lot after the transition time when they became actual members, but only with the economic - aid and hand-outs from EU which continue until today! These are the current figures as of 2006, for Turkey and Greece in relation to some interesting figures:

Greece;
External Debt: $301.9 billion
Unemployment Rate: 9%

Turkey;
External Debt: $193.6 billion
Unemployment Rate: 10%

SOURCE: World Fact Book - 2006

As you can see with a population 1/7 size of Turkey, Greece has more than twice the external debt! IN other words the high life standard they lead is on borrowed credit and not because of some economic miracle they are achieving!

I must shoot of for the eday

[boulio]

Big Oz unfortunatly for the muslims of thrace thats how the treaty of lausaune classified them as a muslim minortiy,in that minorty there are turks,Pomaks and roma.the distribution is about 50-40-10%.there are rougly 120-175,000 living in greece currrently.How many greeks live in turkey which had roughly 120-150,000 in 1923?

Please dont talk to us about human rights violations.

[alexISS]

alexISS! You are treading on very dangerous ground when you keep talking about the Turks of thrace living a better standard of life than those in Turkey.

Firstly, until recently there had been many talks about the human rights of the Turks in Thrace whose identity in Greece is still denied. The official Greek attitude to the ethnic minorities in Greece that there are none! As far as Greece is concerned they have a "muslim" minority and are often in denial of ethnic Turks who form the majority of occupants in Thrace. I can get you very detailed info on how Turkish minority had/have been persecuted until very recently in Thrace, where there had been very serious human right violations. PLEASE do your own research before asking me to provide you with more info because I've been through this a million times in different forums, and I really do not have the time right now! If you think I am lying I shall provide you with plenty info later on...

Well you're luck then, because I too have dealt extensively with the matter. Apart from my "theoretical" knowledge, I have also had extensive discussions with Turkish minority members on the issue, you can find posts of mine regarding the matter in this very forum. Briefly, the Greek government does recognize three ethnic minorities, the Turkish, Pomak and Roma minorities of Thrace, which combined form the muslim minority. However Turkey regards the whole minority as Turkish just to artificially increase her influence in the area, hence the problems with Greece on the matter. Here is an official link from the Greek foreign ministry that confirms what I say:
http://www.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Poli ... THRACE.htm

Furthermore, income per-ca pita is no indication of the standard of life when comparing two economically different areas such as EU and Turkey. If you have say 20,000 Euros as average income in Greece and perhaps 7000 Euros in Turkey, it does not mean that the people in Greece eat any better! If you consider the cost of living in Greece is between 2 and 3 times more than that in Turkey (more so in most other EU countries), then you can see why the purchasing power of the working people would be almost the same.

The PPP GDP per capita is an index that is formed after a normalization that takes into consideration the cost of living, as opposed to the nominal GDP per capita. The first index values for Greece and Turkey respectively are 25,975 and 9,107, while the second index values are 27,610 and 5,408. This means that, if we 'equalize' the cost of living in the two countries, the purchasing power of the average Greek falls to 25,975 and of the average Turk raises to 9,107.

As for Greece's economy and your unfair comparison with regards to what is going on in Turkey economically, please note the fol owing:

Greece's economy and mounting debts were in dire straits until it actually joined the EU (as an associate member). OK, so their economy had improved a lot after the transition time when they became actual members, but only with the economic - aid and hand-outs from EU which continue until today! These are the current figures as of 2006, for Turkey and Greece in relation to some interesting figures:

Greece;
External Debt: $301.9 billion
Unemployment Rate: 9%

Turkey;
External Debt: $193.6 billion
Unemployment Rate: 10%

SOURCE: World Fact Book - 2006

As you can see with a population 1/7 size of Turkey, Greece has more than twice the external debt! IN other words the high life standard they lead is on borrowed credit and not because of some economic miracle they are achieving!

I must shoot of for the eday

The external debt is in no way a measure of the well being of people. In the world factbook you will also see that developed countries with less population than Greece have a greater debt, like Portugal(310,800), Denmark(405,000), Belgium(1,053,000) and others.

Regarding the pre-EU economic status of Greece, I have already provided a link in another thread:
"The per capita income (purchasing power terms) of Greece was 65% that of France in 1850, 56% in 1890, 62% in 1938, 70% in 1980 and 79% in 2006 (Paul Bairoch, Europe's GNP 1800-1975, J. of European Economic History, 5, pp. 273-340 (1976); Angus Maddison, Monitoring the World Economy 1820-1992, OECD (1995); Eurostat, including updated data since 1980 and data released in December, 2006)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece

As you can see, the popular claim that the Greek economy was a mess before 1980 is completely false

[Viewpoint]

alexISS

The Turks of Crete left during the population exchanges of 1923, what are you talking about?!? Should I then ask where the Greeks of Smyrna, Imbros, Tenedos or Pontus are?!?

So they were eradicated? would you accpet the same fate?

Viewpoint wrote:
Could you kindly show us the courtesy of deciding whether we wish to live in Cyprus or Greece, being forced to do anything against your wishes ultimately brings dispute and hardship.


Again you don't make sense

Did we have no rights to object? or take action to stop what would signal the end of our exsistence on the island. Face with danger or extermination its only natural to fight with everything you have to save your life.

What tune would that be? Do you argue that their quality of life is better than the Turks of Turkey?

Plenty of articles on the net go look them up stating the bad treatment of minorities in Greece. Plus Greece is a EU country Turkey is not.

[alexISS]

Viewpoint I'm sorry but your ignorance on these issues is too apparent for me to discuss them with you. I'd rather wait for bigoz's replies

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint I'm sorry but your ignorance on these issues is too apparent for me to discuss them with you. I'd rather wait for bigoz's replies

Whats ignorant about my answers? who gives you the right to insult me in that manner you obviously feel uncomfortable but hey no one is forcing to respond I dont respond to some peoples posts my self.

[paliometoxo]

turkey could of taken the turkish cypriots to turkey they dident have to invade

[alexISS]

Viewpoint I'm sorry but your ignorance on these issues is too apparent for me to discuss them with you. I'd rather wait for bigoz's replies

Whats ignorant about my answers? who gives you the right to insult me in that manner you obviously feel uncomfortable but hey no one is forcing to respond I dont respond to some peoples posts my self.

I never insulted you, you can call me ignorant on Turkey's matters and I won't mind

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint I'm sorry but your ignorance on these issues is too apparent for me to discuss them with you. I'd rather wait for bigoz's replies

Whats ignorant about my answers? who gives you the right to insult me in that manner you obviously feel uncomfortable but hey no one is forcing to respond I dont respond to some peoples posts my self.

I never insulted you, you can call me ignorant on Turkey's matters and I won't mind

Why should I do that? are you just trying to excuse yourself?

[humanist]

VP

Humanist haven't both sides benefited? the Gcs have sole recognition, a GC state and prosperity while the TCs have protection, self rule and land. You seem to concentrate more on people interaction which on a 121 basis is not a problem as people are people where ever you go in the world. The problem is rule who will take charge and how will the structure operate, how will my interests be protected and how will we avoid the mistakes of the past.

VP I am not sure you are being honest wth yourself. And I certainly do not an answer from you on this point.

You cannot also answer on behalf of Greek speaking Cypriots. NO they have not benefited one iota. The RoC always had recognition so much in fact that everybody wants a bit of it. Greek Cypriot have propserity because after the invasion thy got on with it and rebuild their coutry. 1 2 1 interaction is the very thing that makes changes VP. Willingness to accept others is part of the whole package. The African Americans were emancipated from slavery because there were some whites who viwed them as human beings and as equals and helped them in their strugle.

Separating yourselves into a breakaway state, is not learning from mistakes of the past is running on fear 100% that is not to say the fear is not valid, however, there are other structures that can be put in place to ensure safety, equality and equity. That is through legislation and consitutional change. An article that I posted yesterday talks about the 3000000 crossings from north to south without incidents.

Sure enough one had just followed that article. One in three million and you will probably find that most G S Cypiots will condone it any way. Most G S Cypriots wake up in the morning and want to head of to work and propser. They are not the bit interested in Turkish Cypriots.

I think we cannot repeat mistakes of the past because Cyprus is in a different time and space. It has membership with the EU. Can you imagine if there was unification and Turkish Cypriots lived in their old villages not all as we understand there are many issues for that, and were members of the whole community that they would in some way be discriminated and the EU will support that. I doubt it very much


There may be and sure there will be those G S Cyp's who want union with Greece, but am sure there are those T S Cyp's who want the samme with Turkey. God there are those Australians who want a Republic and those who still want the non - existent monarchy to rule the roost. I guess what I am saying we all have a part to play. On an individual level and social/ community level.

If your personal perception of G S Cyp's are the one you potray in this forum then you are not willing to look at anything different and G S Cyp's will always be those EOKA B people you have created in your belief system and those views will be entrneched in your children's minds because that is as far as your pesrception witll allow you to see.

If you as a father in 2007 will respond negatively to your child marrying a Greek Cypriot in 20 odd years, then I think that is a problem.because we have then not learnt anything from the past.