by Get Real! » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:50 am
Bananiot wrote:Hitchens was for many years married to one of Dr Meleagros's daughter. I believe the family ditched him and recently I heard a lot of criticism against him from his own brother. Of course this may not have any bearing on what he writes. I thought I'll let you know.
by Viewpoint » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:27 am
DT. wrote:Viewpoint wrote:DT. & aapapa the whole incident proved to the world once again how isolated we really are and how the GCs continue to pursue policies that will never pay dividends by stopping even a friendly football match. Do you realize that we would rather not play the match than ask a GC body for permission that does not represent us in any shape or form. 33 years and you still feel that by using these tactics you can achieve unification then you really have to rethink things as you have made no progress and are unlikely to do so in the foreseable future. Every incident makes us more determined to get the TRNC recogniized, you tried to get our folk dancers thrown out of the Wales show but they told you to go take a hike and the TRNC flag was put on a massive screen and our children sang and danced amongst other countries just like it should be. These will increase and gradually you will loose your control as countires will get fed up with your lack of desire for resolving the problem and constant demand for exclusion of TCs from every international platform.
can you understand its not a matter of choice? You do not belong to FIFA and subsequently not Uefa. This has nothing to do with tactics, the entire world is telling you that what you are doing is illegal and you still insist on blaming the GC's. How can a football club have a football game with a european club when the said football team does not belong to a football association that is a member of FIFA????? I really don;t understand how this could go any other way.
by Viewpoint » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:31 am
aapapa wrote:Viewpoint wrote:DT. wrote:Viewpoint wrote:A very one sided view of things...not worth the paper its written on and subscribes to the GC propaganda machine which has had the attention of the internationla media monopolized for the best part of 30 years. Not so anymore other nations are now listening to our side of the story and incidents like the football match saga will high light the injustice of the isolation imposed on a people who have always wanted to live in peace without GC dominance.
As i said before had you wanted to play football and football was the only thing on your agenda then a small fax to the CFA with 2 lines saying we're playing Luton would have sufficed. Since football was not what was on the agenda but instead another Talat brainwave for world recognition of his turkish state then I believe you are the side that has been dishonest here. We've acted exactly as we've said we would...no surpises there. What makes my stomach turn is when all these TC's stood up and started crying abouth their human rights being trampled on by the GC's. Apart from the obvious of whose rights are being trampled on right now being the anniversary and everything I would remind them that if they wanted to watch football then they can complain to Talat for not sending a 2 lined fax to the CFA which is the member of FIFA and UEFA for this island.
Man you guys have problems with the number of flies that come to the north let alone accept a 2 line request to play football..and why should we have get your permission? you are not our elected leaders and you do not represent us. The world has once again seen for themselves our isolation keep up the good work.
Of course we are not your elected leaders but there again you do not have an internationally accepted Football Association. Like it or not the Cyprus FA is internationaly accepted. They rightly saw this match as a violation to their internationaly accepted terms of reference and complained to the English FA and UEFA as is their right. It was those two bodies that warned Luton Town that they were breaking the rules. Luton Town in their wisdom and obviously in the fear of sanctions from the English FA and UEFA, decided to decline. You do realise that if you have a wish to join International bodies you must learn to abide by their rules. Not pick and choose as you please.
by Viewpoint » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:41 am
Get Real! wrote:Viewpoint wrote:DT. & aapapa the whole incident proved to the world once again how isolated we really are and how the GCs continue to pursue policies that will never pay dividends by stopping even a friendly football match. Do you realize that we would rather not play the match than ask a GC body for permission that does not represent us in any shape or form. 33 years and you still feel that by using these tactics you can achieve unification then you really have to rethink things as you have made no progress and are unlikely to do so in the foreseable future. Every incident makes us more determined to get the TRNC recogniized, you tried to get our folk dancers thrown out of the Wales show but they told you to go take a hike and the TRNC flag was put on a massive screen and our children sang and danced amongst other countries just like it should be. These will increase and gradually you will loose your control as countires will get fed up with your lack of desire for resolving the problem and constant demand for exclusion of TCs from every international platform.
VP has obviously convinced himself that the “TRNC” is a country and there’s nothing anyone can say that will change his mind so stop wasting your breaths everyone. My only query is if VP is so convinced that they are independent and so close to “recognition” what’s he doing on this forum?
What exactly do you want from us VP because from our “goodwill” you’re not getting jack-shit if you haven’t already realized and all you can expect from us in the future is even more pressure and a very likely possibility of a military confrontation when the time is right for the RoC.
The Greek Cypriots DO NOT accept this “TRNC” crap so don’t get too comfortable there because you DO NOT have the permission of the indigenous people of Cyprus to “own” any contiguous part of this island and form any kind of independent entity that you aim.
So quit making laughable complaints like “we are embargoed” because you just look stupid and we don’t want to hear anymore of your absurdities; we’ve had a gutful already. Any problems your people may be experiencing today are brought about by your leaders so go and complain to them not us.
by Kikapu » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:56 am
Viewpoint wrote:
What you conveniently forget is that we to have rights on this island and our voice will get stronger and stonger over the coming years, if the last 4 are anything to go by recognition will come sooner rather than later thanks to your intrangient/despot leadership and as the world realizes that in this day and age and with examples all over Europe of troubled countries breaking up these people do not deserve to be isolated or forced into union they do not want: These incidents are reminders and examples of how a so called EU member continues to pursue policies of isolating the TCs and then has the gaul to turn around and say its self inflicted..you GCs are the laughing stock of the EU and will continue to cause them bigger headaches in years to come even the Germans have come to the realization that they made a big mistake taking the "RoC" into the EU. Well they aint seen anything yet as the GCs will use the EU time and time again to keep its current no compromise we want osmosis approach, which is far from the EU perspective.
Europe News
Merkel calls on Turkey to respect EU's Cyprus commitments (2nd Lead)
Jul 20, 2007, 16:03 GMT
Athens - German Chancellor Angela Merkel charged Friday that Ankara was still failing to honour its commitments towards the European Union on recognising member state Cyprus.
Turkey has yet to bring itself into line with the Ankara Protocol, signed with the EU in 1961, which commits it to open its ports and airports to traffic from all EU members states - a group that includes the internationally-recognised Greek-Cypriot government in Nicosia.
Ankara cites the divided status of Cyprus and a trade embargo affecting the internationally unrecognised northern Turkish-Cypriot part of the island as their argument for refusing to ratify the protocol.
Refraining from making any comments on Turkey's upcoming general elections on Sunday, Merkel did say, however, that the 'EU opened at the end of June some chapters on Turkey's negotiations with the EU, now what remained was the application of the protocol.'
'Let's see the results of the elections when they happen...Germany wants to help Turkey with the application of this protocol,' Merkel said during her one-day visit to Athens.
Ankara's refusal to implement the protocol led the EU to freeze eight of the 35 negotiating chapters in December 2006.
Greece has been a staunch supporter of Turkey's EU accession course but has said that it must adopt European Union values.
'Turkey must respect the issue of human rights and religious freedom,' said Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanli, adding that he hoped whatever government was elected following general elections 'will help with the country's EU course and improve relations with Greece.'
© 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
by MR-from-NG » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:15 am
Kikapu wrote:Viewpoint wrote:
What you conveniently forget is that we to have rights on this island and our voice will get stronger and stonger over the coming years, if the last 4 are anything to go by recognition will come sooner rather than later thanks to your intrangient/despot leadership and as the world realizes that in this day and age and with examples all over Europe of troubled countries breaking up these people do not deserve to be isolated or forced into union they do not want: These incidents are reminders and examples of how a so called EU member continues to pursue policies of isolating the TCs and then has the gaul to turn around and say its self inflicted..you GCs are the laughing stock of the EU and will continue to cause them bigger headaches in years to come even the Germans have come to the realization that they made a big mistake taking the "RoC" into the EU. Well they aint seen anything yet as the GCs will use the EU time and time again to keep its current no compromise we want osmosis approach, which is far from the EU perspective.
First of all, I read the Newspapers, read the news on the Internet, and watch the news on the TV, and I'm yet to see any meaningful news regarding Cyprus and it's problems, be it be the RoC or the "TRNC", so I wish people would point out to me, as to which countries are listening to the TC's cry for help and which ones are screaming bloody Mary to the RoC. Are you all exagerrating with your claims on the world waking up to the TC's cry of "let my people go" or am I not tuning in to the correct sources to get all the facts. All independent news sources are welcomed.
What ever comments Merkel makes, is just noise and cannot be taken seriously. She had nothing to do with RoC entry into the EU, therefore she can afford to blow some "hot air" because she is not criticizing herself. Show me any leader who voted for the RoC in 2004 who will stand up today and say they made a mistake. Is funny how you hear what Merkel may be saying about the RoC, but not hear what she is trying to do about the immigration which will effect the Turks greatly living in Germany, as well as those hoping to get into Germany. Perhaps she was taking a swing at the RoC and at the same time deflect attention to what she is really trying to do to the Turks. You of all people should know by now as not to trust a politician in what they say.
Oh, I just found this, so I'll just add it on. Merkel does not seem to be sreaming at the RoC here, is she.???Europe News
Merkel calls on Turkey to respect EU's Cyprus commitments (2nd Lead)
Jul 20, 2007, 16:03 GMT
Athens - German Chancellor Angela Merkel charged Friday that Ankara was still failing to honour its commitments towards the European Union on recognising member state Cyprus.
Turkey has yet to bring itself into line with the Ankara Protocol, signed with the EU in 1961, which commits it to open its ports and airports to traffic from all EU members states - a group that includes the internationally-recognised Greek-Cypriot government in Nicosia.
Ankara cites the divided status of Cyprus and a trade embargo affecting the internationally unrecognised northern Turkish-Cypriot part of the island as their argument for refusing to ratify the protocol.
Refraining from making any comments on Turkey's upcoming general elections on Sunday, Merkel did say, however, that the 'EU opened at the end of June some chapters on Turkey's negotiations with the EU, now what remained was the application of the protocol.'
'Let's see the results of the elections when they happen...Germany wants to help Turkey with the application of this protocol,' Merkel said during her one-day visit to Athens.
Ankara's refusal to implement the protocol led the EU to freeze eight of the 35 negotiating chapters in December 2006.
Greece has been a staunch supporter of Turkey's EU accession course but has said that it must adopt European Union values.
'Turkey must respect the issue of human rights and religious freedom,' said Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanli, adding that he hoped whatever government was elected following general elections 'will help with the country's EU course and improve relations with Greece.'
© 2007 dpa - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
by Kikapu » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:28 am
mrfromng wrote:
So how come you trust and believe the GC politicians? They have a terrorist for a president, the man should be tried for war crimes and yet you have no problem believing and trusting him. Kikapu are you on drugs?
by MR-from-NG » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:40 am
by Kikapu » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:00 am
mrfromng wrote:Good morning Kikapu,
In almost all your posts you praise the South and are encouraging TCs to reunite. Not only that but you kick the shit out of the TRNC.
That to me is a clear indication that you do indeed trust them and believe they have the best interest of the TCs at heart. But of course the reality is the minute we surrender ourselves to the RoC we will be worst off then we were in the sixties.
The road to the "peace solution" will take 10 years, so lets us assume we are at the end of 10 years today, so the year in Cyprus now is 2017 and we have a "New Country". So lets see how we got there.
Year 2007, both TC's and GC's agree on a Federation System with two separate states within the country of Cyprus. Lets call it the "United States of Cyprus" which will be North and South Cyprus. Both sides agree to take the full implementation of the Federal System into 2017, so that it becomes as such at the end of the road. in 2017, there are no longer the RoC or "TRNC". Just "United States of Cyprus"
All these events then need to be activated right away, in order to show that both sides are on their way to a Federal System.
1. Remove all checkpoints. No longer needed to show any ID to go back and forth between the North and the South.
2. All non Cypriots who are in the country will need to Register with the RoC. 2007 will be the cut off date for all those immigrants that are already in the country. All new arrivals will need to apply to the RoC first, before arrival.
3. RoC will have full control of it's borders to be able to control immigration, but these duties will be performed by the TC's in the North and GC's in the South until 2017.
4. The North will have Direct Trade and Flights to bring their economy up to par "leveling the playing field".
5. Turkish Troops and Greek Troops and their equipment start withdrawing from the island 10% each year for the next 10 years. For the TT, it will be 4,000 a year based on 40,000 and 1,000 GT based on 10,000. By year 2017, all foreign troops are gone.
6. All mine fields are cleared up by both sides.
7. Replace the Lira with the Cyprus Pound followed by the Euro.
8. Continue with the present political arrangement as it is now with both sides having their elected leaders until 2017. In 2017 there are no longer RoC or "TRNC".
9. All construction on GC land will stop and preserved to be returned back to its owners in the next 10 years. Those who bought GC land, will lose their rights to keep them. They can be reimbursed by a funds set up by the UN, on what they actually paid for the land, plus interest. Those who built homes or businesses on GC land, will have the option to buy the land from the GC owners at the market rate at that time, or else they can sell their house or businesses built on GC land, to the GC's. The TC's must be given the option to buy the land first from the original GC owners and cannot be forced out if they have a house or a business already built on it. Same will apply in the South. Then in the next 10 years, those GC's and TC's who wish to move back to their villages of before 1974, should be made possible and re united with their property.
Then we keep this going for the next 5 years for all sides to get to "know" each other a little better and build confidence. The North will start to develop economically.
By the end of 5th year, talks will start to form the new Federal Constitution by both sides. Using the last 5 years as a confidence building measure, it will be easier for both sides to agree on how to write the new constitution, to be put into use as of 2017. There is no hurry to get this done overnight. Lets take the time to put in all the ingredients that will make the Federal System workable. I would suggest we take 2 years to finish the New Constitution, so by year 2014, it will be ready to put into a referendum, to be voted by all Cypriots as "one man one vote" in a single referendum, but there must be at least 50+ % from each community must vote in favour, in order for the referendum to pass. This will be a safeguard as not to have just a majority vote, which will be dominated by the GC's.
After 8 years of making the adjustments of people shifting around the island, we will have better idea as to how many Cypriots will reside on which part of the island, plus the settlers whom half will gain automatic citizenship either through marriage or being born on the island to at least one Cypriot parent, and the other half will have to follow the rules of the new immigration policies of the New Constitution. Based on the number of Cypriots now living in the North, plus by those who intend on living in the North once the Federal System is in full force by 2017, will determine what the actual boundaries of the North and the South will be. It will only be a imaginary line, but never the less, those will be the borders between the two States. No doubt the North will be mostly TC's and the South will be mostly GC's.
On the 9th year, each State will then write their own state Constitution, knowing full well, that the Federal Constitution has all the protections to all Cypriots and that State Constitution cannot override it. Once again, the State constitution will be put into a State referendum which will needs to have the support of at least 50+% of the GC's and the TC's to pass.
By the end of year 10, we are ready to start our new federal Government.
We are all worried about the majority out voting the minority, due to the numbers. What I would like to suggest is, we get rid of all the Political Parties as they stand right now, from both sides. Lets get away from the coalition movement of a government ( Parliamentary system) to a direct majority win kind of voting. Just like in the states, we have the Democrats, the Republicans and Independents. Let people vote based on ideology and not on ethnic lines.
For instance, and this is just for fun by the way. If we had a "Extremist Party", who do you think will belong to that Party, as Cypriots.? My guess is, it will be all the Fascists, AOKA (A & B), TMT, the Grey Wolves, the Hawks and the Mean spirited!!. They all have something in common, don't they. Why does it matter, that they belong to different ethnicity when they all believe in similar ideology. Well, the same will apply to all those who want to belong to the Democratic, Republican and a Independent Party. Leaders will emerge to represent the Citizens of Cyprus who fall into these three main groups. The leaders can be a TC, GC, Armenian, and anyone else who is a Cypriot Citizen by birth. Citizens from all sides will vote for the party and it's leader because of what they stand for and not because they are GC ot a TC. This will take few years to adjust to this system, but in the end, it will be the way to go.
I will try to find Kifeas's voting Formula in the Government, even though it was based on a Parliamentary system of voting I believe, but it can be used as a model, as to how the citizens from each states are represented in the government.
You can all add your inputs if you like. This is just my idea as to how we can get from here to there in 10 years, with a Federal System as it is in the States for the most part. Of course it is just a "skeleton version", but will look better as pieces are added to the idea, as time goes on, within the 10 years period.
Having already agreed on a TWO State solution with a Federal System of Government, which the line separating both states will run East to West as it does right now, through Nicosia. I believe in today's society, it is counter productive to have a Capital City in TWO pieces, such as South and North Nicosia. It will be very disruptive to have TWO separate State laws (North & South) in ONE location. What I would propose, is to declare the whole of Nicosia as an Independent entity all together from the North and South States. Once again, the "United States of Cyprus" can take a lesson from the USA system, where the Capital city of the USA is Washington, which is situated in no ONE particular State at all, but at a non-state location, District of Columbia, DC. It is a fairly small place and all it has is just US Government Agencies as well as locals who live and work there. In another words, No ONE state can claim to be the Capital State of America. So, I would like to propose, that we do the same in Cyprus, which is to declare Nicosia the Capital of "United States of Cyprus". We can call it, Nicosia DC ( District of Cyprus).
Nicosia DC will be governed by a Mayor and board of Supervisors on all aspects of running a city, with TC's and GC's living and working under this system. Only Federal Laws will apply in Nicosia DC, but each ethnic group living in Nicosia DC, can register to vote for State Senators either in the North or the South, but cannot participate in the local elections of those States, even voting for representatives to congress, in the districts within those states. The residence of Nicosia DC, can vote for all Federal elections, as well as for their local government, ie Mayor, education secretary and so on. Police will be a Federal Force. One more way to really bring the citizens of Cyprus together with this arrangement.
So I think I have the physical structures worked out, for myself anyway, as what I see it to be fair to both sides and what is needed now is the power structure to be held by each ethnic group, as in a Parliamentary system, or close to what we had with the 1960 agreements, which was a disaster from the beginning, or as to what I've suggested, is to get rid of all Political Parties in Cyprus, and just adopt 3 main ones, Democrats, Republicans and Independents, and allow all Cypriots to vote on ideology and not along ethnic lines on choosing their political leaders.
Here are the main differences between the Democrats and the Republicans that I have copied for you:
The Democratic Party is considered to be the more liberal party, and the Republican, the more conservative. Democrats generally
believe that government has an obligation to provide social and
economic programs for those who need them. Republicans are not necessarily opposed to such programs but believe they are too costly to taxpayers. Republicans put more emphasis on encouraging private enterprise in the belief that a strong private sector makes citizens less dependent on government.
Both major parties have supporters among a wide variety of Americans and embrace a wide range of political views. Americans do not have to join a political party to vote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic ... _States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican ... _States%29
If Cypriots follow these ideology of what the above represents, why would anyone care, if those running for office or become a representative of the citizens of the North State, South State or Nicosia DC, are a TC or GC or any other member of the Cypriot Citizen.
This is the formula crated by Kifeas, also known as "Kifeas's Plan" for POWER sharing in a Parliamentary system.
Quote:
If we have a house of 100 members (80 GCs plus 20 TCs) and decisions are taken on simple majority, it means that at least any 51 members out of the above 100 members will have to approve it. However, in order to qualify as simple majority, at least 4 (or 6) of the votes must come (included in the 51 votes needed) from the 20 TCs (20% or 30% of the TC members,) and at least 16 (or 24) of the votes must come from (included in the 51votes needed) from the 80 GCs.
For example we can have the following combination for simple majority to qualify.
I take a special case example that needs 30% minimum from each side.
Case 1:
6 TCs plus 45 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)
Case 2:
20 TCs plus 31 GCs equals 51 /100. (Qualifies)
Case 3:
5 TCs plus 46 GCs equals 51 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)
Case 4:
1 TC plus 80 GCs equals 81 /100 (it doesn’t qualify)
I don't know what method Kifeas has in mind, as far as choosing the President and the vice President through the Parliamentary system, so perhaps he can let us know. If we go with the "majority rule" in a 3 Party System, well, that is clear and simple. Let the best man or woman win.
The present laws on the books regarding education, property and inheritance rights, civil union rights and so on can be kept as is. We can add more, as far as right of Gays, and other minorities rights, if in fact, we do not have them. Since most of our laws seems to come from the British, I believe we can all live with those.
Greek and Turkish being the official language on the island will remain as such. I would also propose, that English is also included in that, being it is widely spoken on the island right now, at least in the South. English should become our SECOND language, so that we can bridge the gap between Turkish and Greek speakers, as well as all the foreigners/ guests on the island. Given the separation of the two communities in the last 44 years, I believe not too many young TC's speak Greek anymore, as they once did, before 1963. I can actually see English as becoming the "main" language in Cyprus in the next 25 years or less.
On the issue of State Flags. I believe each state can choose their own Flag, and considering that there's going to be other people living in each state, other than the two main groups ( GC's & TC's), it would be best to choose a flag that will not remind them of the past, so lets get away from anything that resembles the flags of Turkey and Greece. There are hundreds of choices each state can make, so why inflame the old wounds with reminders of the past by using Turkish or Greek flags. We will have until 2015 to decide how we want each state to write their own Constitution, which will not be Racist, Undemocratic or allows Human Right Violations. Federal laws and guidelines will control our borders and Immigration, and our foreign affairs, as well as maintaining the Federal Constitution, which will include separations of STATE and RELIGION.
Each State can sell their products to who ever they want, as long as all the Cypriots are not deprived of these very same goods, that will require them to be imported from other countries.
In the new Federal State, we will no longer need Guarantors, so as of 2017, Turkey, Greece and the UK will be excluded from our New Constitution. We will give the UK until 2027 to close all their Military Bases in Cyprus, 10 years after the RoC is no longer and return all the land back to Cyprus.
Once the Power structure is in place to be carried out, once the RoC and "TRNC" is dissolved, then begins the New Life in Cyprus. This to me will be the most fair way to move forward for all Cypriots. It will be accepted, that not all Cypriots will get what they want and compromises will need to be made by some, but it will most certainly have a better future for their future generations. Once all the political instability is removed, and Cyprus being in the EU, is the only way Cyprus can access her 100% potentials in economic growth and the standard of living for all it's citizens. We can then assist Turkey's entry into the EU, not too long after 2017.
I'm sure I have not covered every little details, but as a "foundation and a spring board" on how to get from "Here to There", this may be a way to move forward.
Your comments are welcomed and appreciated.
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