Machi reports that Anastasiades bequeathed his chair in Desi to the son of Sampson; Sotiris who claimed some day the Greek flag would flaunt overall Cyprus.
Jimmy when will you obtain some articles to me that written by Anastasiades. And if you can find, I'd like to read Sotiris' and Vera's articles as well..
82% - 18% partition solution.
by MicAtCyp » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:30 pm
Hos buduk Insan kardes,
When I answered on the matter of partition to Piratis, I had to use arguments understandable to a GC. Whether you agree with those or not is another question. I would expect a TC to explain you why partition is the worst solution for the TCs as well, but since I don't see such arguments let me try on their and your behalf. I hope I am convincing, otherwise you may continue beleiving what you beleive. I mean there is no way to prove you anything unless an agreed partition actually occurs. I am not a fortune teller in other words.
The TCs made the mistake of trusting a foreign power to save them in 1974. Not only they have not been saved but almost half of them emigrated abroad and got replaced by settlers. Don't do the same mistake again. With partrition you will not end up with a TC state. You will end up being a province of Turkey. You increase your standard of living one step? Hundreds of unemployed people from Turkey will come there and take your jobs. In the end you will always be at the standard of living of Turkey. And in the end you will have to abandon Cyprus seeking what your fortune somewhere in the UK or Australia.
You keep on talking about our differences in the past 75 or 200 years. In my opinion there was only ONE difference that caused problems. The GCs wanted their freedom from the British linking that wish with the desire to become part of Greece whereas the TCs opposed. The only period when the ONE AND ONLY difference that caused problems is known to everybody. Apart from that I am sure you read enough documents to know that through the centuries the everyday life of the people had more to do with survival, than with anything else.
So what is this mable - jamble you are talking about our differences? It is nice and healthy to have differences as long as we respect each other.
If someday we will end up to a solution do you honestly beleive we will not have differences, we will not have disagreements? Of course we will. Even today AKEL has more differences with DESY than it has with CTP. Does this make them enemies? ? It is the healthiest thing in a democracy to have disagreements and to shout, the same way we do in this forum. By the way did you ever notice how much the "quiet" British shout in their parliament? What is not healthy is to cross the line and use force to subordinate your oponents views. I beleive the mistakes of the past made us all mature enough to know where the red line is.
You said the invasion of 1974 was a peaceful operation. Well, frankly I would never expect to hear such a statement - especially from you. Quote me just one "peaceful" part from the book "40 days in the hands of Attila" that you read last year. (written by Kakoulli Papakonstanti, published in 2004) . Is that a propaganda too?
There are hundreds of eye witness evidences like that my friend, and my opinion it is a shame for you to even mention that the invasion was a peaceful operation.
No I am not going to discuss the reasons why Turkey violated the 3rd Vienna Agreement that was signed between Klerides and Denktash one year after the Invasion and contained nothing more than humanistic measures to ease the pains of war. Firstly because I don't care why Turkey and her subordinate administration at the pseudo state have never respected or applied any agreement like the The Third Vienna Agreement - August 1975, the High - Level Agreement of 12 February 1977, The 10 - Point Agreement of 19 May 1979, the Agreement on Missing Persons - July 1997 or any agreement in which Turkey does not get it all without giving anything.
Secondly because linking the 3rd Vienna Agreement with the 1974 Invasion trying to prove us that hey "it was a peaceful operation look what an angels agreement Santa Turkey signed one
year after but woops the poor Santa Turkey had to violate it, cause someone pinched her ass, mana mou re. . . " is an underestimate of our intelligence.
When I answered on the matter of partition to Piratis, I had to use arguments understandable to a GC. Whether you agree with those or not is another question. I would expect a TC to explain you why partition is the worst solution for the TCs as well, but since I don't see such arguments let me try on their and your behalf. I hope I am convincing, otherwise you may continue beleiving what you beleive. I mean there is no way to prove you anything unless an agreed partition actually occurs. I am not a fortune teller in other words.
The TCs made the mistake of trusting a foreign power to save them in 1974. Not only they have not been saved but almost half of them emigrated abroad and got replaced by settlers. Don't do the same mistake again. With partrition you will not end up with a TC state. You will end up being a province of Turkey. You increase your standard of living one step? Hundreds of unemployed people from Turkey will come there and take your jobs. In the end you will always be at the standard of living of Turkey. And in the end you will have to abandon Cyprus seeking what your fortune somewhere in the UK or Australia.
You keep on talking about our differences in the past 75 or 200 years. In my opinion there was only ONE difference that caused problems. The GCs wanted their freedom from the British linking that wish with the desire to become part of Greece whereas the TCs opposed. The only period when the ONE AND ONLY difference that caused problems is known to everybody. Apart from that I am sure you read enough documents to know that through the centuries the everyday life of the people had more to do with survival, than with anything else.
So what is this mable - jamble you are talking about our differences? It is nice and healthy to have differences as long as we respect each other.
If someday we will end up to a solution do you honestly beleive we will not have differences, we will not have disagreements? Of course we will. Even today AKEL has more differences with DESY than it has with CTP. Does this make them enemies? ? It is the healthiest thing in a democracy to have disagreements and to shout, the same way we do in this forum. By the way did you ever notice how much the "quiet" British shout in their parliament? What is not healthy is to cross the line and use force to subordinate your oponents views. I beleive the mistakes of the past made us all mature enough to know where the red line is.
You said the invasion of 1974 was a peaceful operation. Well, frankly I would never expect to hear such a statement - especially from you. Quote me just one "peaceful" part from the book "40 days in the hands of Attila" that you read last year. (written by Kakoulli Papakonstanti, published in 2004) . Is that a propaganda too?
In the ship
It was about 7 in the morning ', when they put us all in the hold of the ship (a tank carrier) with the number L 401. Because there was heat, we began sweating and in a while we became totally wet. We realised the ship started moving after we heard the noise of the anchor being pulled up.
The travel to Turkey had already begun. Even tied up and sitting there, the Turks continued striking us. Turkish soldiers holding automatic and semi automatic guns with the bayonett on ready for use were watching us not to "escape". Time passed and the string with which they tied us had tightened to the extreme. It had been rammed deeply in my flesh and my hands got swallowed. The condition of the man next to me was worse. I was talking with him since the beggining of the jouirney however never until that moment turned up to look his face. When I did I realised he was Kadi from Limassol with whom we served at the same company in Bogazi. The martyrdom was continuing when at some stage I felt something hot rolling on my lips. It was the blood that ran from my nose again, and that as it was proved later, was my salvation not to get the same wild beating that the other captives got. The blood ran continuously but
no one of the Turkish soldiers approached to sweep it or at least untie my hands to clean myself. Sometimes when I raised the head I saw some Turks showing me to each other, but no one did approach. What happened next in the boat is undescribeable. Heart breaking voices and sighs of despair, and the usual words that not for a moment did stop been heard are "nero (=water in Greek) " or "Su effendim Su " (Water Sir, water please) . Meanwhile it began smelling bad because most pissed on their positions. What could anyone do since they did not allow us to go to the lavatory?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
What I saw happening inside that ship cannot be described. One can only see it in imaginary cinema movies. Some Turkish soldiers, as soon as they realised that no officer was watching, would run with all their strength and kick their captives mostly in the head with their boots. At the moment they would strike I was always turning my face to the other side not to see, but I heard the heart - breaking voice of our people. With a few words that trip can be compared with a trip to hell.
In the afternoon they began getting prepared for the deportation of the "merchandise" they brought from Cyprus. Because unfortunately only as souless "things" we could be compared. The ship door opened and I saw hundreds of angry crowds waiting us outside. . . .
There are hundreds of eye witness evidences like that my friend, and my opinion it is a shame for you to even mention that the invasion was a peaceful operation.
Insan wrote: Turkish intervention in 1974 was a peace operation. However, Turkey and the TC administration violated the 3rd Vienna Agreement that was signed between the relevant parties in 1975. Has anyone ever read any article about why Turkish side violated the 3rd Vienna Agreement?
No I am not going to discuss the reasons why Turkey violated the 3rd Vienna Agreement that was signed between Klerides and Denktash one year after the Invasion and contained nothing more than humanistic measures to ease the pains of war. Firstly because I don't care why Turkey and her subordinate administration at the pseudo state have never respected or applied any agreement like the The Third Vienna Agreement - August 1975, the High - Level Agreement of 12 February 1977, The 10 - Point Agreement of 19 May 1979, the Agreement on Missing Persons - July 1997 or any agreement in which Turkey does not get it all without giving anything.
Secondly because linking the 3rd Vienna Agreement with the 1974 Invasion trying to prove us that hey "it was a peaceful operation look what an angels agreement Santa Turkey signed one
year after but woops the poor Santa Turkey had to violate it, cause someone pinched her ass, mana mou re. . . " is an underestimate of our intelligence.
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by -mikkie2- » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:50 pm
MicAtCyp,
Does it surprise you that we get the same excuses by our TC friends? Even persons such as Insan, who I would consider has moderate views, resorts to turning black into white. He likes to give us links and quotes to show us that we are perhaps stupid or incapable of understanding the past events. We know very well the pain and suffereing that people went through but no matter how many times we say this or try to convince them we always get the same answer. It is very easy to be selective in the way events are portrayed and to point fingers and apportion blame. We can do the same thing too. We have plenty of stories to say too. What they want is capitulation by the GC's and nothing less.
They talk of injustices yet they still to this very day perpetute the biggest injustice of all by witholding information and the true locations of mass graves of GC's in order to ascertain the fate of the missing. This kind of action is DESPICABLE and DISGRACEFULL and it is the biggest shame of all. My grandfather died without knowing what happened to his son for 20 years, who we now know was killed by a Turkish bomb. To see the pain that this man went through for all this tiime and the effect it has had on my family leaves a very hollow feeling inside.
Does it surprise you that we get the same excuses by our TC friends? Even persons such as Insan, who I would consider has moderate views, resorts to turning black into white. He likes to give us links and quotes to show us that we are perhaps stupid or incapable of understanding the past events. We know very well the pain and suffereing that people went through but no matter how many times we say this or try to convince them we always get the same answer. It is very easy to be selective in the way events are portrayed and to point fingers and apportion blame. We can do the same thing too. We have plenty of stories to say too. What they want is capitulation by the GC's and nothing less.
They talk of injustices yet they still to this very day perpetute the biggest injustice of all by witholding information and the true locations of mass graves of GC's in order to ascertain the fate of the missing. This kind of action is DESPICABLE and DISGRACEFULL and it is the biggest shame of all. My grandfather died without knowing what happened to his son for 20 years, who we now know was killed by a Turkish bomb. To see the pain that this man went through for all this tiime and the effect it has had on my family leaves a very hollow feeling inside.
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by Piratis » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:15 am
All efforts of Turkey to restore and maintain peace in safer model of state,i.e; bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based upon "political equality" of two communities with some permemnant restrictions; cut no ice. So is Turkey's mission accomplished? How could Turkey leave under the circumstances?
So basically you use force to achieve what you want, and until you get what you want you will not stop the illegal occupation and you will not obey the UN resolutions.
Thieves behind Tanks
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by insan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:31 am
Hi adelfe MicAtCyp,
Minor differences are welcomed noone bothers much about them but major differences are unpleasant. They limit and end the realations of human beings. It is obvious that majority of TCs don't share the same views you have about the historical facts.
The peace intervention is one thing, facing with a fiery resitance and responding it with the same severity or more severly is another thing.
I wonder, apart from a small group of left-wingers who were guarding Makarios' palace GCs didn't resist the Greek invaders and their local collaborators. However when it came to Turkey's intervention; all of them, Eldik, National Guard, Leftists, reserves and civilians took whatever fire arms and weapons they have and resisted against Turkish intervention. Why? Because they were Turks?
The man talk about his stories. Why didn't he also tell us how many TCs killed and tortured by "him"?
Because of the GCs massive resistance against Turkish intervention, so many Turkish soldiers lost their lives in the very begining of the intervention. Guess how the rest of the Turkish soldiers and their commanders felt themselves about the ones who welcomed the Greek invaders but resisted against Turkish intervention.
What did Turkey get with those agreements that you "forced" to sign? Where are those things now, that Turkey got? Turkey demanded, you pretended that you accepted then you kept insisting what you always believed was right.
You still believe that majority should rule, "political equality" of two communities is anti-democratic.
You still believe that Turks are evil GCs angels.
You still believe that you are matured but Turks didn't.
There's no relation between the Turkish intervention and the wrong-doings of the then Turkish governments. TCs trusted the sincerity of GC community and jointly established the RoC. Then what's happened? If you take it percentagely, the TCs who emigrated other countries during the 1950-1974 period because of the GC opression and violation is much more than the number of TCs emigrated to other countries because of the Turkish oppression and the economic difficulties.
You skip the part that you have the responsibility and bring what the Turks did in the forground. Why?
I'm aware of that you keep avoiding and skipping to discuss the things that would reveal the truths.
If you believe that despite all these hurting differences you could get along well with a TC community as your "politically equal" state partner; then there's no problem for me.
I accept to put both versions of Cyprus history in official text-books. Do you also accept? But please don't change your mind later then impose us your version of history behind the mask of "majority rule".
Minor differences are welcomed noone bothers much about them but major differences are unpleasant. They limit and end the realations of human beings. It is obvious that majority of TCs don't share the same views you have about the historical facts.
The peace intervention is one thing, facing with a fiery resitance and responding it with the same severity or more severly is another thing.
I wonder, apart from a small group of left-wingers who were guarding Makarios' palace GCs didn't resist the Greek invaders and their local collaborators. However when it came to Turkey's intervention; all of them, Eldik, National Guard, Leftists, reserves and civilians took whatever fire arms and weapons they have and resisted against Turkish intervention. Why? Because they were Turks?
The man talk about his stories. Why didn't he also tell us how many TCs killed and tortured by "him"?
Because of the GCs massive resistance against Turkish intervention, so many Turkish soldiers lost their lives in the very begining of the intervention. Guess how the rest of the Turkish soldiers and their commanders felt themselves about the ones who welcomed the Greek invaders but resisted against Turkish intervention.
What did Turkey get with those agreements that you "forced" to sign? Where are those things now, that Turkey got? Turkey demanded, you pretended that you accepted then you kept insisting what you always believed was right.
You still believe that majority should rule, "political equality" of two communities is anti-democratic.
You still believe that Turks are evil GCs angels.
You still believe that you are matured but Turks didn't.
The TCs made the mistake of trusting a foreign power to save them in 1974. Not only they have not been saved but almost half of them emigrated abroad and got replaced by settlers. Don't do the same mistake again.
There's no relation between the Turkish intervention and the wrong-doings of the then Turkish governments. TCs trusted the sincerity of GC community and jointly established the RoC. Then what's happened? If you take it percentagely, the TCs who emigrated other countries during the 1950-1974 period because of the GC opression and violation is much more than the number of TCs emigrated to other countries because of the Turkish oppression and the economic difficulties.
You skip the part that you have the responsibility and bring what the Turks did in the forground. Why?
No I am not going to discuss the reasons why Turkey violated the 3rd Vienna Agreement that was signed ...
I'm aware of that you keep avoiding and skipping to discuss the things that would reveal the truths.
If you believe that despite all these hurting differences you could get along well with a TC community as your "politically equal" state partner; then there's no problem for me.
I accept to put both versions of Cyprus history in official text-books. Do you also accept? But please don't change your mind later then impose us your version of history behind the mask of "majority rule".
Last edited by insan on Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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by insan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:40 am
Does it surprise you that we get the same excuses by our TC friends? Even persons such as Insan, who I would consider has moderate views, resorts to turning black into white. He likes to give us links and quotes to show us that we are perhaps stupid or incapable of understanding the past events. We know very well the pain and suffereing that people went through but no matter how many times we say this or try to convince them we always get the same answer. It is very easy to be selective in the way events are portrayed and to point fingers and apportion blame. We can do the same thing too. We have plenty of stories to say too. What they want is capitulation by the GC's and nothing less.
mikkie,
That's actually what you and majority of Hellenes have been doing all the times. You always skip your crimes, guilts, wrong-doings and mistakes and bring ours foreground. At least I don't deny our mistakes and put all of them forward. Your history text books which alleges that Cyprus problem started in 1974, Tassos ridiculous statement no TCs killed in 1963-74 period and the support majority of GCs and Greece giving such an ex-pro-coupist-enosist man wery well proves the facts and sincerity level of me and yours.
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by -mikkie2- » Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:08 am
Insan,
Since when did I deny that we didn't do no wrong? Since when did I say the Cyprus problem began in 1974? You just can't go making generalisations about I think or what I believe.
The Cyprus problem as we currently know it began much earlier than 1974 and much earlier than 1963 and even earlier than 1955.
By saying that the 1974 invasion was a peace operation shows that you deny crimes that were committed in your name. I don't need you to lecture me about what is and what isn't true.
Since when did I deny that we didn't do no wrong? Since when did I say the Cyprus problem began in 1974? You just can't go making generalisations about I think or what I believe.
The Cyprus problem as we currently know it began much earlier than 1974 and much earlier than 1963 and even earlier than 1955.
By saying that the 1974 invasion was a peace operation shows that you deny crimes that were committed in your name. I don't need you to lecture me about what is and what isn't true.
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by insan » Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:10 am
I wonder, apart from a small group of left-wingers who were guarding Makarios' palace GCs didn't resist the Greek invaders and their local collaborators. However when it came to Turkey's intervention; all of them, Eldik, National Guard, Leftists, reserves and civilians took whatever fire arms and weapons they have and resisted against Turkish intervention. Why? Because they were Turks?
Answer mikkie answer... Answer to all of the questions I've asked....
Answer mikkie answer... Answer to all of the questions I've asked....
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by Piratis » Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:20 am
I wonder, apart from a small group of left-wingers who were guarding Makarios' palace GCs didn't resist the Greek invaders and their local collaborators. However when it comes to Turkey's intervention; all of them, Eldik, National Guard, Leftists, reserves and civilians took whatever fire arms and weapons they have and resisted against Turkish intervention. Why? Because they were Turks?
Insan, you do not understand the difference between a coup and a an invasion? The coup took place in a limited geographical areas, the coupists didn't bomb cities, and they didn't march into the cities and villages.
Also you are wrong that GC citizens didn't resist the coup. Apart from a small minority, the rest resisted, but there is only so much unarmed citizens could do in such a short period.
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