Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

I bet, Cannedmoose, Alexandros, Jimmy, Nickcp and some others will do, brother.

[brother]

joke my friend, just that cypriots being calm and level headed

[MicAtCyp]

But, the statement "I am willing to screw every single one of you motherfuckers, if I don't get my property back" sounds pretty idiotic to me.

Not really! I would call it a rude way of honestly saying what he beleives. Not very helpful to promote discussions in a forum, but still better than hypocricy.

By the way beleive it or not you will be surprised to learn what people can do about their properties. In many of my posts in the past I warned everyone to expect a degree of blood after a solution. Because there will be killings for the properties.

What I just wish is that this thing will not escalate, and certainly not get organised.

[Saint Jimmy]

I read a lot about Hellenic arguments and propaganda regarding this issue. They believe that it was an ethnic cleansing done by Turks in order to divide Cyprus permenantly.

In my opinion, this issue should be examined by taking into consideration the then psychologic mood of TCs and Turks, their frustration about Greeks and GCs.

Hi Insan, I read your reference to cool-headed wise guys, but I didn't think that included me , so I didn't write my opinion. But then you referred to me (big mistake ), so here goes:
taking into account the psychological aspect of TCs and Turkey, as to the ten or so years that preceded the agreement, we still come to the same conclusion. TCs and Turkey could not trust GCs and Greece, because of whatever it was they had been through (let alone the resentment those incidents had caused). So, even if we accept that 1974 was a peace operation, it evolved into something different: a crusade to forcefully separate the two ethnic groups, so that any solution that would eventually be found would incorporate this separation.
Do you have a different view? I mean, even accepting that Turkey intervened with the intent to restore and maintain peace, one must account for the fact that she never left, right?

[-mikkie2-]

MicAtCyp,

Very well said. Everybody involved with the Cyprus problem has underestimated the desire of many refugees to get their property back. This desire is VERY strong for many people, particularly those that have left Cyprus. In fact, they have used the issue of properties to effectively pay for the implementation of the Annan plan! Remember the bonds that were to be given in exchange? Worthless bits of paper in my opinion!

Reading the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee report posted by Alex, I think people are slowly realising that the property issue is far more important than people realised and I now hope the provisions of any future plan that is tabled will be more considerate towards the refugees.

As you quite rightly pointed out, I have been insisting that the settler issue and the property issue anre inexorably linked and the only way proper restitution is to be achieved is for as many settlers to leave the island as possible. The argument that Cyprus needs their labour is false and an outright lie when you consider many Turkish Cypriots are unemployed, or are employed by a bloated 'government'.

[Saint Jimmy]

But, the statement "I am willing to screw every single one of you motherfuckers, if I don't get my property back" sounds pretty idiotic to me.

Not really! I would call it a rude way of honestly saying what he beleives. Not very helpful to promote discussions in a forum, but still better than hypocricy.

By the way beleive it or not you will be surprised to learn what people can do about their properties. In many of my posts in the past I warned everyone to expect a degree of blood after a solution. Because there will be killings for the properties.

What I just wish is that this thing will not escalate, and certainly not get organised.

I see what you're saying, Mic, but still, the fact that people will kill or bomb or fight for their properties is not the real issue here...
See, in my head, there's not a chance in a million that things will go back to 1973, where everyone will get their properties back. It's almost certain (again, in my head) that any solution will involve either exchange of properties, or monetary compensation, or anything to that effect.
To say, 'I will never vote for a solution, until I get my property back', is to say 'to hell with all of you, this is only about me'.
Do you see it?
I'm not saying he's lying; of course he's honestly saying what he believes. I'm saying that what he believes is a petty, vindictive recipe for disaster. It's the same kind of stuff that got us into this mess in the first place.

[-mikkie2-]

Jimmy,

The 'peace operation' was anything but that. The 1st invasion was met with sympathy by the international community. Only after Turkey kept breaking the ceasefire and the 2nd invasion occurred, any sympathy Turkey had went straight out of the window.

In 1975 Turkey forced the exchange of populations that remained in the north and south of Cyprus. About 25000 GC's were forced to move south and about 50000 TC's to move north.

The fact remains that any intervention in Cyprus was meant to re-establish constitutional order. Turkey has obviously not done that. THe Vienna Agreements are irrelevant in my opinion, because they were not establishing constitutional order. Insan likes to mention these but their context was the protection of the remaining GC's to be treated humanely. They were not a means of re-establishing constitutional order.

This is why the UN SC have passed numerous resolutions against Turkey because she has failed to live up to her obligations as a guarantor of Cyprus.

[insan]

Do you have a different view? I mean, even accepting that Turkey intervened with the intent to restore and maintain peace, one must account for the fact that she never left, right?

Hi Jimmy. Thanks for your reply.

All efforts of Turkey to restore and maintain peace in safer model of state,i.e; bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based upon "political equality" of two communities with some permemnant restrictions; cut no ice. So is Turkey's mission accomplished? How could Turkey leave under the circumstances?

[insan]

Jimmy,

The 'peace operation' was anything but that. The 1st invasion was met with sympathy by the international community. Only after Turkey kept breaking the ceasefire and the 2nd invasion occurred, any sympathy Turkey had went straight out of the window.

Because they weren't aware of the details of the incidents taking place at that times. What would Turkey do while there were still several irregular Hellenic bands opening fire towards Turkish troops? Although Sampson has resigned(seemingly) still was making provocative speeches and leading the fascist bands.

Wiggin: 'Mr. Kirca, can you give us an assurance that your forces will halt their advance if the other side stops firing?'

Kirca: Immediately!'

Bitsios: 'But, at the moment, there are various bands of irregular soldiers about who will not take orders from us. Would the Turks feel justified in further advances if one of these groups acted in an irresponsible manner?'

Kirca: 'I'm afraid I do not understand. You send Greek officers to command them and now plead that "you cannot control them." This, I cannot accept. I speak for the whole of our forces, including the Turkish-Cypriot Fighters, and I expect the Greek delegation to be in a similar position. Mr. Mavros is asking for an undertaking that Turkish units will not advance even if fired on or if Turkish villagers are subjected to massacre. Is this reasonable?'

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/30_hot_d ... pt%203.htm
Now I'm asking to you was it reasonable?

Georkajis was not in complete control of all the paramilitary forces within the Greek community. His major opponent during the first three years of independence was Nicos Sampson, the ex-EOKA guerrilla who deposed Makarios in 1974. Sampson commanded his own private army, as we have seen, and competed for power with Georkajis. Their feud climaxed in 1962 when two members of Sampson's gang were gunned down in Famagusta by Georkajis's supporters. Although Georkajis was allegedly not involved in the killings, his failure to arrest and prosecute the killers offered propaganda ammunition to the opponents of the government. It was the intercommunal outbreak of violence in 1963 that temporarily unified the various factions

www.cyprus-conflict.net/disloyalty%20-%20Markides.htm

On 18 July Ecevit sent Athens an ultimatum calling for the resignation of Sampson, the withdrawal of the Greek officers of the Cypriot National Guard and firm pledges of Cyprus' independence. The junta were foolishly confident that America would, as before, stop the Turks from using force and sent an equivocal answer. What Ecevit called 'the peace operation' then went forward. Under cover of aerial bombardment of Turkish troops made an assault landing near Kyrenia at dawn on 20 July and met with fierce resistance.

What else would you like Turkey to do under the then circumstances that Greeks and GCs had lost all their credibilities in the minds and hearts of TCs and Turks?

[insan]

The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos Sampson on 26th February 1981 in which he said "Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS - I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus."

Even Greek Cypriots sought Turkey's help. In her memoirs, Greek Cypriot MP Rina Katselli, says "16th July 1974 Is Makarios alive? Is he dead? The Makarios supporters arrested, the EOKA-B supporters freed... I did not shed a tear, why should I? Did the stupidity and fanaticism deserve a tear? There are some who beg Turkey to intervene. They prefer the intervention of Turkey." 18th July 1974 "My God!... Everyone is frozen with fear...the old man who asked for the body of his son was shot on the spot..The tortures and executions at the central prison... everyone is frozen with horror. Nothing is sacred to these people, and they call themselves Greeks!... we must not keep that name any longer."

Either you like to hear or not....