Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Hi T_C,

Hope that you're doing well in your training. Can't wait for your "report".

Just a quick question. Are you being trained by the TC's or by the Turkish Military.?

Thanks.

[T_C]

Supposedly the Turkish military but all the komutans training us are TCs.

My views have NOTHING to do with the military though Kikapu if thats what youre thinking. Ive been going round speaking to people who lived through the EOKA period. I was at the mass graves last week where I met some of the victims like those on the video I posted who were tortured in prison camps and came back to nothing when they returned. The man I met effected me A LOT coz no matter how much people scream ''Turkish propaganda'' theres nothing like seeing the pain for yourself!!!! I felt so sad for him and didnt know what to say or do...he gave me a ''book'' and asked me to show it to as many people as I could when I get back to the UK. Its not even a book! Just a bunch of A4 paper with writing thats stapled together. No one in here knows the true extent in which TCs suffered and I KNOW RoC has completely manipulated the events of 63-74!

The Turkish Cypriots story hasnt even come out yet because most of the people here who were effected the most havent told their story to anyone but friends and family...

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Listen this is the last time I'm going to respond to you because I think I'm starting to sound as much of an idiot as you!

1)Enosis might of been your right but it was our right to oppose it without getting killed!

May I remind you it was Turkish Cypriots who did the first killing between the two communities when they sided with the British and also killed 8 Greek Cypriots in Gunyeli. You oppsed it AND you cast the first stone.

2)Eoka even killed the GCs that opposed..what ''democratic vote'' are you talking about when people who opposed were murdered?

Yes, Turkish Cypriots who opposed Taksim were murdered by the TMT also.

3)Like us you imported a Greek army of 20.000 men and way before Turkeys army came.

You DO KNOW when Turkey first tried to invade Cyprus right? it was waaaaay before 1974. Do you have the date when the Greek army was invited to Cyprus?? Because it could help us understand why.

4)Like us you ethnically cleansed MANY TCs from their villages before we did it to you.

Again, do you have dates????? I wouldnt count the TMT telling Turkish Cypriots to leave there villages to go to the self-style enclaves because they used scare tactics as Greek Cypriot ethnic cleansing. Again, TC - do you have credible proof and dates!?

5)Like the Turkish soldiers that came for you, the Greeks that came from the mainland raped, killed and tortured TCs!

Again, when? Im not saying they didnt - but when!? After the invasion? As a answer back to the Turkish army's acts??

Yet you STILL talk about all this being your ''legitimate'' right! There is NOTHING legitimate in getting things done by killing and torturing people.

You expect us to sit and wait for freedom and be made fools of any longer? screw that!

The same way you feel about Turkism is the same way TCs feel about Hellenism. Turkism is what ruined the GCs and Hellenism is what ruined TCs IN THE SAME EXACT MANNER so accept it and be carefull how you present your point of view!

I couldnt give a rats arse about your Hellenic history since its EXACTLY what ruined my peoples lives since the 60s! I understand your point of view (despite the fact I have a much bigger connection to my motherland than you) yet you still want to tell me about Hellenism and your legitimate right to Enosis despite how they went about achieving it. You even go go one step further by expecting me to respect Hellenism! I respect Cypriotism I respect GCs but I do NOT and will NOT respect the kind of Greekism that you're here defending and preaching about!

I feel for Hellenism the same way you feel for Turkism. This isnt the way forward for Cyprus' future. Till you start respecting why TCs feel this way you can cry all you want but I will be here to counter every single one of your posts!

I was under the impression that GCs were different from Greeks from the mainland in the same way we are different from Turks from Türkiye. If this is the case (and I hope to GOD it is) then there is hope. Theres enough Cypriot ''things'' in Cyprus for us to be JUST Cypriots without concentrating on Turkism or Hellenism, and everytime we talk about those 2 things its always about HISTORY and not the future.

Cypriots are as different to mainland Greeks as Cretans are and Macedonians are. I can accept my Hellenistic culture and live side by side with Turkish Cypriots. What I cant accept is Turks and Turkish Cypriots destroying Hellenistic culture in the north and try telling us that Cyprus was not culturally Greek. Thats absurd.

I support Turkey leaving our country so long as we have a BBF, a 18 (even 15)%-82 (85)% split or ANYTHING where we get to administer ourselves to begin with untill we see can see for ourselves that things will be different living with GCs this time round. We dont feel like we can trust your governments word and we have bloody good reasons not to. We NEVER will and its a TRAVESTY that you cant seem to understand why.

Thats not a fair future you have for our island. What you are saying is that you want segregation. Do you honestly believe that Turkish Cypriots will ever renounce control of the north because they think they can start to live with Greek Cypriots. What your telling us is that although Turkish Cypriots played a totally equal part in the troubles before the invasion, you are going to keep us suffering for it by not having a democratic island and keep us from our human rights in a BBF. No thank you - I see you still wish to keep our homes for ransom then.

You will have to make compomises AND take risks if you want peace on the island and we will have to do the same.

Which compromises do you mean? Im not willing to compromise on anything that is not democratic and fair for all Cypriots. No way should we have an island where one ethnic group does not have the same rights as another or that people who lost their houses do not have a say to what happens to what rightfully belongs to them.

Without those compromises and risks it will be the same selfish inconsiderate bullshit...Turkism VS Hellenism!

What you envisage in a BBF is effectively permanent segregation.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Supposedly the Turkish military but all the komutans training us are TCs.

My views have NOTHING to do with the military though Kikapu if thats what youre thinking. Ive been going round speaking to people who lived through the EOKA period. I was at the mass graves last week where I met some of the victims like those on the video I posted who were tortured in prison camps and came back to nothing when they returned. The man I met effected me A LOT coz no matter how much people scream ''Turkish propaganda'' theres nothing like seeing the pain for yourself!!!! I felt so sad for him and didnt know what to say or do...he gave me a ''book'' and asked me to show it to as many people as I could when I get back to the UK. Its not even a book! Just a bunch of A4 paper with writing thats stapled together. No one in here knows the true extent in which TCs suffered and I KNOW RoC has completely manipulated the events of 63-74!

The Turkish Cypriots story hasnt even come out yet because most of the people here who were effected the most havent told their story to anyone but friends and family...

Dont you should tell some of these Turkish fanatical groups like ATCA and embargoed.org - who are supposedly telling the Turkish Cypriot story...to be shut up then. Because I know for myself they spread lots of lies about the history of Cyprus or what is going on today, therefore find it EXTREMELY hard to believe any Turkish Cypriot about the suffering they have been through without any proof. Ive seen the lies for my own eyes - like the ATCA banners saying "Greek Cypriots killed 20,000 Turkish Cypriots in the 1960's." Just like the 'torture' in the Turkish Cypriot camps, as far as I have read on various sources, Greek Cypriots detained Turkish Cypriots in football stadiums etc after the invasion broke out but have not heard anything about torture.

Again, tell TC to stop the lying, we've even seen blatent lies by Zan and VP here...and we might start to believe.

[Kikapu]

Supposedly the Turkish military but all the komutans training us are TCs.

My views have NOTHING to do with the military though Kikapu if thats what youre thinking. Ive been going round speaking to people who lived through the EOKA period. I was at the mass graves last week where I met some of the victims like those on the video I posted who were tortured in prison camps and came back to nothing when they returned. The man I met effected me A LOT coz no matter how much people scream ''Turkish propaganda'' theres nothing like seeing the pain for yourself!!!! I felt so sad for him and didnt know what to say or do...he gave me a ''book'' and asked me to show it to as many people as I could when I get back to the UK. Its not even a book! Just a bunch of A4 paper with writing thats stapled together. No one in here knows the true extent in which TCs suffered and I KNOW RoC has completely manipulated the events of 63-74!

The Turkish Cypriots story hasnt even come out yet because most of the people here who were effected the most havent told their story to anyone but friends and family...

T_C,

I would have thought by now, you would know enough about me, that if I wanted to ask you a direct question about anything, I would not beat around the bush. I was just curious as to who does the Military Training to the TC's. Simple question and I thank you for the answer.

I'm glad you're talking to people T_C. I can just imagine you returning back to Cyprus after so many years and now old enough to understand the horrors of mass graves and ethnic killings in general by Cypriots on Cypriots. What you need to keep things in perspective is, when ever you have a "civil war", there are lots of ugly things that each do to the other, and it is never one sided. I hope you read my comments on the video you have provided for us to see last week. Gather your information T_C and try to be objective. You may feel terrible wrong was done to the person who has given you the information, but also know, that there are also other persons in similar situations with equally sad stories on both sides of the divide. Anyone who thinks Cyprus only had one sided villains and one sided victims, are the Propagandist in trying to hide the truth.

[Piratis]

Listen this is the last time I'm going to respond to you because I think I'm starting to sound as much of an idiot as you!

I understand why being unable to respond to my arguments upsets you, but this doesn't mean you can personally attack me.

1)Enosis might of been your right but it was our right to oppose it without getting killed!

Enosis was demanded from the colonialists since the 1930s. As we agreed it was our legitimate right. Nobody touched Turkish Cypriots back then. The conflict between GCs and TCs started when TCs collaborated with the colonialists to fight against GCs and started to support partition. Partition was not your legitimate right and it involved the mass ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots. That is when the inter-communal conflict started, and not before.

2)Eoka even killed the GCs that opposed..what ''democratic vote'' are you talking about when people who opposed were murdered?

Democracy was not allowed to us since we were enslaved colonial subjects. An unofficial referendum organized by the Church showed that 95% of GCs at that time supported enosis. However the colonialists refused to make an official referendum and allow Cypriots to choose the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.
This is why an armed straggle was the only option left (after trying all other methods for decades), where the great majority of Cypriots had to fight to gain what they were not allowed to have by democratic means.

3)Like us you imported a Greek army of 20.000 men and way before Turkeys army came.

Who told you about 20.000 men? This is nothing more than Turkish propaganda. A small number of Turkish troops, and a bit bigger number of Greek troops were allowed to be in Cyprus according to the 1960 "independence" agreements. Maybe the number had been more than what allowed, but the 20.000 and anything near that is nothing more than Turkish propaganda.

4)Like us you ethnically cleansed MANY TCs from their villages before we did it to you.

During the intercommunal conflict of 63-68 some TCs went into enclaves. For some this was done out of fear (since there was a conflict going on) and for others this was done by the orders of TMT in order to prepare the ground for separation and partition.
However most of those TCs returned to their homes by 1968. We never claimed that their homes and properties are ours, we didn't sell them to foreigners, we didn't issue fake title deeds or any of the other illegalities that you did against us.

5)Like the Turkish soldiers that came for you, the Greeks that came from the mainland raped, killed and tortured TCs!

Is this a "standard" Turkish propaganda or you are making it up now? The organization that did the crimes against TCs was EOKA B, just like your TMT did the crimes against us. Those crimes although brutal and in the case that were done against innocents are definitely condemned have nothing to do with the magnitude of attrocities commited by the Turkish army during the invasion.
In the whole inter-communal conflict that lasted for same years a few 100s of people were killed on each side. During the Turkish invasion 1000s of people had been killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed within days. Cyprus had never seen such massive scale of death and destruction since the time the Ottomans first invaded our island.

Yet you STILL talk about all this being your ''legitimate'' right! There is NOTHING legitimate in getting things done by killing and torturing people.

We fought for the liberation of country since the colonialists and the Turks had refused to us our legitimate rights for decades. What did you want us to do? Sit there and remain the slaves of the British and the Turks like we were during the previous centuries? As you understand there is a time that enough is enough, and we had to revolt against our oppressors.

The same way you feel about Turkism is the same way TCs feel about Hellenism. Turkism is what ruined the GCs and Hellenism is what ruined TCs IN THE SAME EXACT MANNER so accept it and be carefull how you present your point of view!

The difference is that Cyprus has a Greek Cypriot majority and a Hellenic history that goes back 1000s of years. We didn't try to impose Hellenism on you. A Hellenic island is what you choose to come to. (uninvited my I add). As I said nobody prohibits you to practice your language, religion etc and live in Cyprus as equal Cypriot citizens, and for your community to maintain its unique characteristics. But trying to change this island into something else by force, ethnic cleanings, importation of mainland settlers, destruction of our heritage etc, is something unacceptable.

I couldnt give a rats arse about your Hellenic history since its EXACTLY what ruined my peoples lives since the 60s!

No, what ruined Cyprus are those foreigners that wanted a piece of Cyprus for their own and they didn't want to allow Cypriots to take democratic choices by themselves. So they used the TC minority as part of their divide and rule practices in order to achieve their aim.

I understand your point of view (despite the fact I have a much bigger connection to my motherland than you) yet you still want to tell me about Hellenism and your legitimate right to Enosis despite how they went about achieving it.

Was there any other way of archiving our legitimate right given to us?

I couldnt give a rats arse about your Hellenic history since its EXACTLY what ruined my peoples lives since the 60s! I understand your point of view (despite the fact I have a much bigger connection to my motherland than you) yet you still want to tell me about Hellenism and your legitimate right to Enosis despite how they went about achieving it. You even go go one step further by expecting me to respect Hellenism! I respect Cypriotism I respect GCs but I do NOT and will NOT respect the kind of Greekism that you're here defending and preaching about!

I feel for Hellenism the same way you feel for Turkism. This isnt the way forward for Cyprus' future. Till you start respecting why TCs feel this way you can cry all you want but I will be here to counter every single one of your posts!

I was under the impression that GCs were different from Greeks from the mainland in the same way we are different from Turks from Türkiye. If this is the case (and I hope to GOD it is) then there is hope. Theres enough Cypriot ''things'' in Cyprus for us to be JUST Cypriots without concentrating on Turkism or Hellenism, and everytime we talk about those 2 things its always about HISTORY and not the future.

I support Turkey leaving our country so long as we have a BBF, a 18 (even 15)%-82 (85)% split or ANYTHING where we get to administer ourselves to begin with untill we see can see for ourselves that things will be different living with GCs this time round. We dont feel like we can trust your governments word and we have bloody good reasons not to. We NEVER will and its a TRAVESTY that you cant seem to understand why.

You will have to make compomises AND take risks if you want peace on the island and we will have to do the same.

Without those compromises and risks it will be the same selfish inconsiderate bullshit...Turkism VS Hellenism!

You first talk about Cypriotism and then you go on with your usual separatist ideas.
In the past I tried hard to get TCs to agree that in Cyprus we should have just equal Cypriot citizens, without any form of borders, and a democratic country like all the rest.
However it is the TCs who insist on separation and discrimination based on ethnic background, not me. Seeing how the TCs reacted I have become more hard liner myself, since it was apparent that TCs would not agree to anything less than partition.

You talk about compromises. Once our extreme (but legitimate) demand was enosis. Your extreme (and illegitimate) demand was partition.
The compromise between the two was an independent state.
We have abandoned our extreme demands but you did not. So the TCs now not only are not compromising, they are on the contrary withdrawing the compromises they have already made and they demand for more.

So why should we be the ones that keep making compromises, while the TCs being the ones that keep gaining, way more than what proportionately belongs to them, on our loss?

About the 18%-82% split, I am the one who proposed it, and I can guarantee you that it will be accepted by the majority of GCs. It is the TCs you will have to convince about that, since they are the ones who will not agree on anything even remotely fair, since they believe they have won the war and now they should gain even more on our loss.

[Pyrpolizer]

Supposedly the Turkish military but all the komutans training us are TCs.

My views have NOTHING to do with the military though Kikapu if thats what youre thinking. Ive been going round speaking to people who lived through the EOKA period. I was at the mass graves last week where I met some of the victims like those on the video I posted who were tortured in prison camps and came back to nothing when they returned. The man I met effected me A LOT coz no matter how much people scream ''Turkish propaganda'' theres nothing like seeing the pain for yourself!!!! I felt so sad for him and didnt know what to say or do...he gave me a ''book'' and asked me to show it to as many people as I could when I get back to the UK. Its not even a book! Just a bunch of A4 paper with writing thats stapled together. No one in here knows the true extent in which TCs suffered and I KNOW RoC has completely manipulated the events of 63-74!

The Turkish Cypriots story hasnt even come out yet because most of the people here who were effected the most havent told their story to anyone but friends and family...

TC I would like to read the "book". Could you please ask the man if he has it in electronic format and give it to you?

[oranos64]

Piratis
that is fantastic stuff and well done on taking time to respond in that detailed manner ...i will endevor to take the forum more serious

can you list or suggest some matrerial to read ...i am looking for balanced views ...but its difficult

also from i have read when scouring U.N police records from back then ...your info is very precise ...

nice one ....

[Kifeas]

As far as the minority issue is concerned... TCs are not a minority they are ONe of the TWO communities of Cyprus which you make up nothing more than the other ONe. TCs are not a minority; they never have been and they never will be. For:

(1) This is recognized by the U.N. I will not put references to this obvious legal and practical reality since the space here is limited. By typing “u.n. + two communities” in any common search engine you will find millions (at google a little over two million headings for example) of topics that come up with U.N. documents, reports, resolutions, press releases, statements, comminuqiues, lectures, notes and etc. mentioning, stating and recognizing the existence of two communities of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus. Additionally, the U.N. has been for years calling a settlement with a bi-communal (meaning two communities) and bi-zonal (meaning two zones) structure in Cyprus where both have equal political status.

(2) TCs were given reserved/separate seats and rights in the administration and civil service and a vice-president post which holds the authority to veto the president as it sees fit. Their judicial, municipal, educational and communal structuring was completely separate and autonomous from the GC community. This is not the status of a minority in any legal or logical term.

(3) Armenians, Maronites and Latins are described as minorities under the RoC Constitution (where Appendix E specifically defines them as such and sets out the provisions for which their rights are to be safeguarded). Turkish Cypriots are neither mentioned nor handled within this context.

(4) BUT ABOVE ALL OF THESE: the RoC has come about with the signatories of the two communities, represented by Makarios and Kutchuk, who have both attended, signed the establishing legal documents as the leaders of the TWO Communities. Both Kutchuk and Makarios pressed seal under the titles as Leaders of their respective Communities next to Britian, Turkey and Greece foreign ministers; and not as one under the title of the Greek Cypriot Nation Leader and the other as its Turkish Cypriot Minority Leader. Independence to RoC was not granted as a unilateral act on the part of United Kingdom, but as a consequence of a number of Treaties between conjoint signatures from the two communities (represented with equal status in attendance, confirmation and law-binding).

Turkish Cypriots are one of the parties that signed into the establishing legal agreements of the RoC, just as their GC counterpart. The agreements are not between the Greek nation and its Turkish minority but between the Turkish and the Greek communities. This is a fact of the law and practice, hence not subject to your interpretation or perversion. Cyprus is not Hellenic; perhaps the Greek Cypriot community is. The other community is not. Cyprus is Cypriot with two communities of Greek and Turkish. Now sit back, relax and take all the time you need to let this sink in.

Murataga, I will not waste time on any of the unimportant, irrelevant and insignificant nonsense you have posted above, but I will only tell you a couple of things that I hope you will take into consideration, regardless of your obvious brainwashed attitude.

Murataga, your above comments constitute only an arbitrary and purely one-sided interpretation of only a selective part of what the 1960 agreements say and what the UN and other organizations have said at times!

Murataga, if with all your above otherwise divisive comments, you want to imply that we should accept (a.) the effective “leveling out” of one group of Cypriots making up the 82% of the indigenous population, with another group of Cypriots making up only the remaining 18%, and (b.) that we should accept the 18% of Cypriots to become the “exclusive sub-ethnic owners” of a much larger part of Cyprus, in the expense of the rights and interests of the remaining 82% of Cypriots; then you are essentially dreaming and you are not realistic at all!

[polis]

On 15 July 1974, elements of the CNG staged a coup against the President Makarios. Two days later the leader of the pro-Enosis movement, EOKA-B, Sampson. At the time in prison...

So much for the quality of information one can get on the internet. Sampson was never even a member of EOKA B, he was appointed president on the day of the coup and he was certainly not in prison at the time.