Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

[quote="humanist"]Deniz[quote]I can categorically say that we never had such training (anti-GC) in our Secondary or Lyce's. The point I am trying to make is that I (personal opinion) would put the blame on "outsiders".[/quote]

I really don't care who you blame, my only concern is that the blaming has gone on and on and on and nothing has changed we have some Cypriots isolated and some without their homes. To be that is just wrong we need to change our tune. We need to move on. 33 years is a long time to be stuck in the same place.

VP not buying your argument about the big fat NO. It was a referendum if the two sides agreed that would have been great they didn't. If the TC's no longer want unification that is fine, if they do that is even better. And need to let the Grek side know so they can start preparing appropriate plans. Perhaps it is up to the Greek speaking side to make some proposals. What happens if they do and your side gives a big fat NO. Working together might get us somewhere and hopefully to big fat YES.

The problem is they have givn alternatives and the TC's don't want to discuss the issues. That is right of return, two states with Federal government that overides the states, unified chamber of commerce, health system, social and cultural departments etc.[/quote]

I agree with most of what you say. Unfortunately I do not feel that our leaders are very honest with their policies. At least tpap seems not to beat around the bush. I think I have a better view of what he (tpap) wants than our leaders....I am definitely off now. I will miss you guys. Enjoy your holidays. I will.
Regards
DA

[Pyrpolizer]

So we have this frequent argument that IF the GCs wouldn't fight the British and if they wouldn't have wanted Enosis, then the Tcs wouldn't have wanted Taksim, we wouldn't have hostilities and nothing would happen.

All these imo are just BIG IFs. Suppose the British would have decided Cyprus was useless and they would leave in 6 months.Suppose there was no Greece to want Enosis, no Turkey to want taksim either.

Do you think everything would turn up rosy and have a true Democracy here? I think we would have a civil war, exactly like in Spain, where the Basques ask for autonomy.

I don't blame the GCs for wanting Enosis, neither the TCs for wanting Taksim. These things happened and they were the natural course of events.

In the meantime so many other things also happened, I even consider the import of settlers in the occupied a natural event given the so much empty land and the emigrating of the TCs.

The question today is: CAN WE DO SOMETHING, THAT WILL BRING UNIFICATION AS A NATURAL COURSE OF EVENTS?

[Viewpoint]

the_snake_and_the_crane Im probably wasting my time you appear to be a lost cause and a zero tollerance level but here goes nothing...

Firstly, how do you expect people who chose union with their ideological motherland for over a hundred years as a means of escaping opression, to suddenly drop such an idea in the space of under a year, because an unethical constitution was forced upon them by their colonial rulers.

Would that be the same constitution you cling onto so dearly today? maybe it become valuable when you sucessfully extrated the TC element to create a GC state run by GCs.

and after 1960, who exactly chose to persue hidden agendas? May I remind you of the Turkish Cypriot paramilitary hidden agendas in blowing up Turkish Cypriot buildings and blaming the attack on the Greek Cypriots in order to whip up animosity and therefore push towards segregation. That was the only real hidden agenda which was a direct attack on the other community, during the early 1960's.

Both sides used underhand tatics to pursue their aims but you have to admit that the Enosis dream arrived on the scene before Taksim and in fact triggered the TCs who saw Taksim as a way of survival knowing that their numbers were never going to sand upto the force of the GCs they collaberated with Turkey.

Did the Turkish Cypriots want 'Cypriotism'? NO!!! Do they want it now? NO!! Did the Turkish Cypriot paramilitaries want 'Cypriotism' when they murdered Turkish Cypriot socialists?? NO!!

"Cypriotism" was kicked into touch by GCs who wanted to be Greek and change the name of Cyprus into Greece...the TCs didnt stand a chance as they were struggling for 11 years to survive against discrimination, isolation and persecution...hardly a moment in time for "Cypriotism" to be encouraged amongst TCs, thats why as I say the GC were in a stronger situation as it is the case today to encourage a Cypriot people like some on this forum then 1960 was a lost opportunity and today its just to little to late we have all moved on and changed.

Laying all the blame on the Greek Cypriot community is a fucking TYPICAL ignorant Turkish thing to do. Greek Cypriots here, countless times, have said over and over they know their community was not innocent...but Turkish Cypriots and Turks, who in hindsight caused MUCH MUCH GREATER attrocities, seem to think they cannot shoulder any blame whatsoever!

If you point a gun at my head and tell me you are going to shoot my brains out and turn around and stab you in the heart who is to blame here?

Please, whats a football match with a crap English first division team in comparison to the continual ethnic cleansings and facist gestures shown by Turkey and Turkish Cypriots for the last 33 years! Please carry on lieing to the world about the Turkish Cypriot self-isolation, it will only make the Greek Cypriot diaspora wake up, respond and tell what is REALLY going on in Cyprus! Im the sure the average person knows that theivery and ethnic cleansing is a far greater crime the not permitting a football match which could have easily been played if Cetinkaya were not acting like facist-separatists.

The world will one day understand the truth our voice is becoming louder and louder....we are not denying anyone their rights but what we are saying everyone can have hteir rights but lets put all the safeguards in pplace that will not allow the past to repeat itself but off course you do not want this has you have appear to objections to not being given a free hand to do whatever you wish against our will.

[Piratis]

TCs ''dream'' was never to partition Cyprus...it was THE ONLY OPTION LEFT under the circumstances!!!

So the only option of TCs was to start a fight against GCs and commit crimes against us?

According to the resolution 1541 for decolonization:

free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

What we pursued was one the three legitimate options. If you didn't like the option we choose then you had the right to support any of the other two legitimate options, and then Cypriots could decide in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they would go for.

Instead of that you choose to fight against us for a criminal cause. YOU started the fight against us, not us. What we pursued was perfectly legitimate. What you pursued, was the partition of our country, which involved ethnic cleansing and is something criminal and definitely not legitimate.

So you started the inter-communal conflict because you didn't like the perfectly legitimate choice of the great majority of the Cypriot people.
The TC minority in Cyprus was armed and used by Britain and Turkey in order to prevent Cyprus gaining full liberation, because Turkey and Britain wanted and continue to want a piece of Cyprus.

Had the TCs accepted the legitimate and democratic choices of the great majority of Cypriots, no conflict would have ever happened. They started the conflict, and then they complain about it, as if we were supposed to just sit there and accept that others should continue to rule us and take decisions for us, instead of allowing Cypriots to make their own choices via democratic means.

[Piratis]

And about Cypriotism. Cypriots are as much Cypriots, as Cretans and Cretans and Rhodians and Rhodians. This island has a Hellenic history as long as any other part of the Hellenic world.

The fact that in Cyprus there is a Turkish minority due to the Ottoman oppressive rule of our island doesn't change the above fact. The TCs have every right to maintain the own religion, language and traditions, and live in Cyprus as equal citizens, but they do not have the right to erase the history of this island simply because they don't like it.

[T_C]

TCs ''dream'' was never to partition Cyprus...it was THE ONLY OPTION LEFT under the circumstances!!!

So the only option of TCs was to start a fight against GCs and commit crimes against us?

According to the resolution 1541 for decolonization:

free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

What we pursued was one the three legitimate options. If you didn't like the option we choose then you had the right to support any of the other two legitimate options, and then Cypriots could decide in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they would go for.

Instead of that you choose to fight against us for a criminal cause. YOU started the fight against us, not us. What we pursued was perfectly legitimate. What you pursued, was the partition of our country, which involved ethnic cleansing and is something criminal and definitely not legitimate.

So you started the inter-communal conflict because you didn't like the perfectly legitimate choice of the great majority of the Cypriot people.
The TC minority in Cyprus was armed and used by Britain and Turkey in order to prevent Cyprus gaining full liberation, because Turkey and Britain wanted and continue to want a piece of Cyprus.

Had the TCs accepted the legitimate and democratic choices of the great majority of Cypriots, no conflict would have ever happened. They started the conflict, and then they complain about it, as if we were supposed to just sit there and accept that others should continue to rule us and take decisions for us, instead of allowing Cypriots to make their own choices via democratic means.

We chose to fight against you because we saw for ourselves what low life murdering criminals, you, your religious lunatic leader and your terrorist EOKA were! AND WE WERE RIGHT!

I will show just what kind of people youre defending with all this Hellenism bullshit and what they did to my people AS SOON as I get back to the UK!
The mass graves here are FULL to the brim of WOMEN, CHILDREN and OLD PEOPLE!!!!!! It was your ''brave'' Hellenists that did all this and youre here defending those who brought our country to its knees...SHAME ON YOU!

You can add the words ''democratic'' and ''legitimate'' to cast a cloud over peoples eyes all you want...I hope people can see you for what you are...a brainwashed FOOL!

[Murataga]

TCs ''dream'' was never to partition Cyprus...it was THE ONLY OPTION LEFT under the circumstances!!!

So the only option of TCs was to start a fight against GCs and commit crimes against us?

According to the resolution 1541 for decolonization:

free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

What we pursued was one the three legitimate options. If you didn't like the option we choose then you had the right to support any of the other two legitimate options, and then Cypriots could decide in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they would go for.

Instead of that you choose to fight against us for a criminal cause. YOU started the fight against us, not us. What we pursued was perfectly legitimate. What you pursued, was the partition of our country, which involved ethnic cleansing and is something criminal and definitely not legitimate.

So you started the inter-communal conflict because you didn't like the perfectly legitimate choice of the great majority of the Cypriot people.
The TC minority in Cyprus was armed and used by Britain and Turkey in order to prevent Cyprus gaining full liberation, because Turkey and Britain wanted and continue to want a piece of Cyprus.

Had the TCs accepted the legitimate and democratic choices of the great majority of Cypriots, no conflict would have ever happened. They started the conflict, and then they complain about it, as if we were supposed to just sit there and accept that others should continue to rule us and take decisions for us, instead of allowing Cypriots to make their own choices via democratic means.

“We fought against the colonialists” for describing EOKA is an incorrect statement with the intent of perverting the facts and history of Cyprus. The correct description is: "You terrorized whoever was in your way (that included the British, Turkish and your own people) to achieve the annexation of the Island to Greece which you knew meant the enslavement of the TCs". An even more more grossly erroneous statement is that EOKA fought for "liberation". EOKA fougt for one thing and one thing only: to hand over Cyprus to Greece, not liberation leading to independence; so be carefull when you use the word "liberation". TCs had the right of self-determination in the case which you were granted one. Obviously this was not a feasible solution given the circumstances of Cyprus hence the three guarantors and the leaders of the two communities signed into the establishment of the RoC (and again as representatives of two communities; not as one with the title of Cypriot Nation Leader and the other as the Cypriot Minority Leader). Both community leaders were recognized and treated as equivalent signatories in the Agreements (and all corresponding legal document) by the parties concerned, law and the rest of the world.

As far as the minority issue is concerned... TCs are not a minority they are ONe of the TWO communities of Cyprus which you make up nothing more than the other ONe. TCs are not a minority; they never have been and they never will be. For:

(1) This is recognized by the U.N. I will not put references to this obvious legal and practical reality since the space here is limited. By typing “u.n. + two communities” in any common search engine you will find millions (at google a little over two million headings for example) of topics that come up with U.N. documents, reports, resolutions, press releases, statements, comminuqiues, lectures, notes and etc. mentioning, stating and recognizing the existence of two communities of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus. Additionally, the U.N. has been for years calling a settlement with a bi-communal (meaning two communities) and bi-zonal (meaning two zones) structure in Cyprus where both have equal political status.

(2) TCs were given reserved/separate seats and rights in the administration and civil service and a vice-president post which holds the authority to veto the president as it sees fit. Their judicial, municipal, educational and communal structuring was completely separate and autonomous from the GC community. This is not the status of a minority in any legal or logical term.

(3) Armenians, Maronites and Latins are described as minorities under the RoC Constitution (where Appendix E specifically defines them as such and sets out the provisions for which their rights are to be safeguarded). Turkish Cypriots are neither mentioned nor handled within this context.

(4) BUT ABOVE ALL OF THESE: the RoC has come about with the signatories of the two communities, represented by Makarios and Kutchuk, who have both attended, signed the establishing legal documents as the leaders of the TWO Communities. Both Kutchuk and Makarios pressed seal under the titles as Leaders of their respective Communities next to Britian, Turkey and Greece foreign ministers; and not as one under the title of the Greek Cypriot Nation Leader and the other as its Turkish Cypriot Minority Leader. Independence to RoC was not granted as a unilateral act on the part of United Kingdom, but as a consequence of a number of Treaties between conjoint signatures from the two communities (represented with equal status in attendance, confirmation and law-binding).

Turkish Cypriots are one of the parties that signed into the establishing legal agreements of the RoC, just as their GC counterpart. The agreements are not between the Greek nation and its Turkish minority but between the Turkish and the Greek communities. This is a fact of the law and practice, hence not subject to your interpretation or perversion. Cyprus is not Hellenic; perhaps the Greek Cypriot community is. The other community is not. Cyprus is Cypriot with two communities of Greek and Turkish. Now sit back, relax and take all the time you need to let this sink in.

[T_C]

And about Cypriotism. Cypriots are as much Cypriots, as Cretans and Cretans and Rhodians and Rhodians. This island has a Hellenic history as long as any other part of the Hellenic world.

The fact that in Cyprus there is a Turkish minority due to the Ottoman oppressive rule of our island doesn't change the above fact. The TCs have every right to maintain the own religion, language and traditions, and live in Cyprus as equal citizens, but they do not have the right to erase the history of this island simply because they don't like it.

We're not erasing it, your history is all over the island....but in the North thats EXACTLY what it is...HISTORY, and thats how it will remain till we reach an agreement!!!

[Piratis]

We chose to fight against you because we saw for ourselves what low life murdering criminals, you, your religious lunatic leader and your terrorist EOKA were! AND WE WERE RIGHT!

And when did you see all that? We were under the oppressive Ottoman Turks for 3 centuries. The Turks during their rule butchered 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots. Then when the rule of Cyprus passed to the British we started with peaceful demonstrations demanding nothing more than what was our right since the 1930s.

If there was somebody that has already proven to be barbarian criminals by that time, those were the Turks, not us. Yet, the Turks, once more, choose to start a fight against us and side with foreigners to prevent Cypriots to democratically choose the destiny of their own island.

EOKA did not appear until 1955, when the colonialists (with the support of Turks) refused to allow to Cypriots to choose what was their 100% legitimate right, and instead they continued to enslave us.

I will show just what kind of people youre defending with all this Hellenism bullshit and what they did to my people AS SOON as I get back to the UK!
The mass graves here are FULL to the brim of WOMEN, CHILDREN and OLD PEOPLE!!!!!! It was your ''brave'' Hellenists that did all this and youre here defending those who brought our country to its knees...SHAME ON YOU!

Look who is talking about shame!! The shameless Turk who supports murders, crimes and illegalities as we speak.
I have repeatedly condemned all crimes against innocent people. What I support is only the legitimate demands of the Cypriot people, and our right to fight for them. On the contrary you celebrate illegalities and the murder and ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of innocent people. YOU ARE SHAMELESS.

You can add the words ''democratic'' and ''legitimate'' to cast a cloud over peoples eyes all you want...I hope people can see you for what you are...a brainwashed FOOL!

Obviously you don't like the words democratic and legitimate, since you want to impose to the Cypriot people the will of a small minority and some foreigners by means of brute force. Democracy simply doesn't suit you. And obviously you don't like legitimacy either, since all you have supported are nothing more than crimes and illegalities.

[T_C]

Listen this is the last time I'm going to respond to you because I think I'm starting to sound as much of an idiot as you!

1)Enosis might of been your right but it was our right to oppose it without getting killed!

2)Eoka even killed the GCs that opposed..what ''democratic vote'' are you talking about when people who opposed were murdered?

3)Like us you imported a Greek army of 20.000 men and way before Turkeys army came.

4)Like us you ethnically cleansed MANY TCs from their villages before we did it to you.

5)Like the Turkish soldiers that came for you, the Greeks that came from the mainland raped, killed and tortured TCs!

Yet you STILL talk about all this being your ''legitimate'' right! There is NOTHING legitimate in getting things done by killing and torturing people.

The same way you feel about Turkism is the same way TCs feel about Hellenism. Turkism is what ruined the GCs and Hellenism is what ruined TCs IN THE SAME EXACT MANNER so accept it and be carefull how you present your point of view!

I couldnt give a rats arse about your Hellenic history since its EXACTLY what ruined my peoples lives since the 60s! I understand your point of view (despite the fact I have a much bigger connection to my motherland than you) yet you still want to tell me about Hellenism and your legitimate right to Enosis despite how they went about achieving it. You even go go one step further by expecting me to respect Hellenism! I respect Cypriotism I respect GCs but I do NOT and will NOT respect the kind of Greekism that you're here defending and preaching about!

I feel for Hellenism the same way you feel for Turkism. This isnt the way forward for Cyprus' future. Till you start respecting why TCs feel this way you can cry all you want but I will be here to counter every single one of your posts!

I was under the impression that GCs were different from Greeks from the mainland in the same way we are different from Turks from Türkiye. If this is the case (and I hope to GOD it is) then there is hope. Theres enough Cypriot ''things'' in Cyprus for us to be JUST Cypriots without concentrating on Turkism or Hellenism, and everytime we talk about those 2 things its always about HISTORY and not the future.

I support Turkey leaving our country so long as we have a BBF, a 18 (even 15)%-82 (85)% split or ANYTHING where we get to administer ourselves to begin with untill we see can see for ourselves that things will be different living with GCs this time round. We dont feel like we can trust your governments word and we have bloody good reasons not to. We NEVER will and its a TRAVESTY that you cant seem to understand why.

You will have to make compomises AND take risks if you want peace on the island and we will have to do the same.

Without those compromises and risks it will be the same selfish inconsiderate bullshit...Turkism VS Hellenism!