Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

Deniz, my stance is this neither community is innocent, neither community is guilty, both communities behaved innapropriately toward each other. Both communities suffered and are suffering to this day. Past history is just that and cannot be changed the future on the other hand can. If everyone on this forum concentrated on a better, hate, racist, fear, discrimination free future for our country we would be able to achieve it.I fail to understand how the constant rhashing of this black past that Cypritos have experieneced are going to hepl the Cypriot people in 2007. The cnstant rehashing of the old stuff has not changed the statues quo for the last 33 years. Unless we change our views and perceptions of each other toady we are going to be talking about this very same thing for another 33 years I will be 77 years of age. I was six in 74. For me that is not an achievement and nothing to be proud of. Like I said in a previous post. I cannot hold a 40 year old turkish cypriot man's child responsible for what his father and grandfather did to my fathers father and grandfather.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

The simple truth is (as clearly quoted by TC) - if it were not for the initial EOKA and ENOSIS dreams, there would have been no wars between the two communities (just like the 350 years they lived together before), no hatred and probably a single Cyprus nation that would speak both Greek and Turkish as well as English - something many people, in increasing numbers, did prior to 1963 troubles!

Crap! SO what your telling me is Greek Cypriots should have decided to stay opressed under colonial rule and not fight for there freedom (freedom including the right to democratically vote who rules them). I can EASILY turn around and say that if Turkish Cypriots had not sided with the British Empire, then there would have been no war between the two communities. I suppose you think the Greek revoloution should not have happend and the Greek people should hve just WAITED till The Turkish Ottoman Empire decided to grant them freedom.

[Viewpoint]

The simple truth is (as clearly quoted by TC) - if it were not for the initial EOKA and ENOSIS dreams, there would have been no wars between the two communities (just like the 350 years they lived together before), no hatred and probably a single Cyprus nation that would speak both Greek and Turkish as well as English - something many people, in increasing numbers, did prior to 1963 troubles!

Crap! SO what your telling me is Greek Cypriots should have decided to stay opressed under colonial rule and not fight for there freedom (freedom including the right to democratically vote who rules them). I can EASILY turn around and say that if Turkish Cypriots had not sided with the British Empire, then there would have been no war between the two communities. I suppose you think the Greek revoloution should not have happend and the Greek people should hve just WAITED till The Turkish Ottoman Empire decided to grant them freedom.

You read but you do not learn, what TCs are saying is that 1960 was the turning point when GCs should have embraced the "RoC" in 1960 and promoted "Cypriotism" between the 2 communities when they the opportunity but unfortunately you chose to pursue hidden agendas which have in short brought us to where we are today.

[Viewpoint]

Deniz, my stance is this neither community is innocent, neither community is guilty, both communities behaved innapropriately toward each other. Both communities suffered and are suffering to this day. Past history is just that and cannot be changed the future on the other hand can. If everyone on this forum concentrated on a better, hate, racist, fear, discrimination free future for our country we would be able to achieve it.I fail to understand how the constant rhashing of this black past that Cypritos have experieneced are going to hepl the Cypriot people in 2007. The cnstant rehashing of the old stuff has not changed the statues quo for the last 33 years. Unless we change our views and perceptions of each other toady we are going to be talking about this very same thing for another 33 years I will be 77 years of age. I was six in 74. For me that is not an achievement and nothing to be proud of. Like I said in a previous post. I cannot hold a 40 year old turkish cypriot man's child responsible for what his father and grandfather did to my fathers father and grandfather.

I agree with most of what you say but I have to draw your attention that the only time the TCs were whether they wanted reunification they said YES, what did they get in return? a big fat NO and nothing since. Its really up to the rejecting side to pursue policies that will fall inline with trying to resolve issues that made them uncomfortable yet all we see from GCs is policies to stop ıd from playing friendly foodtball matches. You have to see the harm this does to bring the 2 communities closer together. But hey a Folk dancing Troop from the TRNC flew the flag high in Wales last week, the harder you try to isoalte us the harder we will try to smash this unfair hold...if you feel your policies are paying dividends and taking you towards your goals then continue but if you feel you have got nothing form these actions then surely its time to revise them and try to use these issues to bring us closer together.

[bigOz]

The simple truth is (as clearly quoted by TC) - if it were not for the initial EOKA and ENOSIS dreams, there would have been no wars between the two communities (just like the 350 years they lived together before), no hatred and probably a single Cyprus nation that would speak both Greek and Turkish as well as English - something many people, in increasing numbers, did prior to 1963 troubles!

Crap! SO what your telling me is Greek Cypriots should have decided to stay opressed under colonial rule and not fight for there freedom (freedom including the right to democratically vote who rules them). I can EASILY turn around and say that if Turkish Cypriots had not sided with the British Empire, then there would have been no war between the two communities. I suppose you think the Greek revoloution should not have happend and the Greek people should hve just WAITED till The Turkish Ottoman Empire decided to grant them freedom.

I am telling you nothing because I gave up long time ago! You are immune, so my posts are addressed in response to others... Lets see if I can come up with more "crap" now:

1948 Winster proposals for self-government excluded self-determination; rejected by Greek Cypriots (GCs). TCs form special committee in response to rising GC demand for enosis.

1949 First TC public protest against enosis in Nicosia; two TC groups unite in Turkish National Party. AKEL switches from supporting self-government to support for enosis.

1950 Makarios III becomes Archbishop; petition for enosis in churches signed by 96-97% .

1955 Armed violence against British begun by Grivas & EOKA. Küçük renames National Union Party as Cyprus is Turkish Party. London Conference: Britain invited Greece & Turkey to discuss problems, including Cyprus. Conference ended without agreement. Riots orchestrated in Istanbul. Gov. Harding cracks down on EOKA.

1956 Negotiations for self-government. Makarios deported. Violence & repression intensifies. EOKA targets police, GCs as well as British murdered. GCs in police replaced by TCs; some TCs are casualties of EOKA terrorism. Radcliffe Plan for self-governance rejected; first official reference to partition.

1957 Bombing kills one TC, wounding three; TCs retaliated. TC riots in Nicosia against British forces; seven TCs killed. Trade unions joint appeal for calm. EOKA cease fire, release of Makarios to Athens. TC demand for "taksim"; rise of TMT. Demand for Turkish army base. Governor Foot pursues new policy of conciliation.

1958 EOKA boycott of British, end of year-long ceasefire. EOKA targets TCs; villages burned. TC violence against GCs in Nicosia, 8 GCs killed near Guenyeli.Intercommunal ceasefire. Makarios announced he would agree to guaranteed independence. MacMillan plan involving Greece & Turkey; some implementation begun.

1963 Dec 21, intercommunal violence explodes. Truce force set up with British troops, Greek & Turkish liaison officers. Ceasefire after Turkish jets buzzed Nicosia. Casualties in first ten days (known dead & missing presumed dead): TCs, 136, GCs 30.

1964 February, brutal attacks on TC civilians in Limassol. March, UNFICYP established; British troops on island seconded to UN force. National Guard put under command of Greek army general. Some 20,000 TCs flee areas where violence occurred, taking refuge in enclaves; some Turkish villages looted and destroyed. June, Turkish invasion threatened. Grivas returns to command Greek army contingent. August, arms & men imported by both sides. GC attack on and capture of TC villages in the Tylliria area in effort to control the coastline led to Turkish bombing of GC villages which included the use of napalm. Ceasefire arranged.

1967 Military coup in Greece; secret talks with Turkey. Grivas orders attack of TC villages; threat of Turkish invasion; recall of Grivas & thousands of excess Greek troops. Provisional TC administration created in enclaves.

I rest my case!

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

You read but you do not learn, what TCs are saying is that 1960 was the turning point when GCs should have embraced the "RoC" in 1960 and promoted "Cypriotism" between the 2 communities when they the opportunity but unfortunately you chose to pursue hidden agendas which have in short brought us to where we are today.

Firstly, how do you expect people who chose union with their ideological motherland for over a hundred years as a means of escaping opression, to suddenly drop such an idea in the space of under a year, because an unethical constitution was forced upon them by their colonial rulers.

and after 1960, who exactly chose to persue hidden agendas? May I remind you of the Turkish Cypriot paramilitary hidden agendas in blowing up Turkish Cypriot buildings and blaming the attack on the Greek Cypriots in order to whip up animosity and therefore push towards segregation. That was the only real hidden agenda which was a direct attack on the other community, during the early 1960's.

Did the Turkish Cypriots want 'Cypriotism'? NO!!! Do they want it now? NO!! Did the Turkish Cypriot paramilitaries want 'Cypriotism' when they murdered Turkish Cypriot socialists?? NO!!

Laying all the blame on the Greek Cypriot community is a fucking TYPICAL ignorant Turkish thing to do. Greek Cypriots here, countless times, have said over and over they know their community was not innocent...but Turkish Cypriots and Turks, who in hindsight caused MUCH MUCH GREATER attrocities, seem to think they cannot shoulder any blame whatsoever!

I am telling you nothing because I gave up long time ago! You are immune, so my posts are addressed in response to others... Lets see if I can come up with more "crap" now:

Im sure others will answer that question for you.

I agree with most of what you say but I have to draw your attention that the only time the TCs were whether they wanted reunification they said YES, what did they get in return? a big fat NO and nothing since. Its really up to the rejecting side to pursue policies that will fall inline with trying to resolve issues that made them uncomfortable yet all we see from GCs is policies to stop ıd from playing friendly foodtball matches. You have to see the harm this does to bring the 2 communities closer together. But hey a Folk dancing Troop from the TRNC flew the flag high in Wales last week, the harder you try to isoalte us the harder we will try to smash this unfair hold...if you feel your policies are paying dividends and taking you towards your goals then continue but if you feel you have got nothing form these actions then surely its time to revise them and try to use these issues to bring us closer together.

Please, whats a football match with a crap English first division team in comparison to the continual ethnic cleansings and facist gestures shown by Turkey and Turkish Cypriots for the last 33 years! Please carry on lieing to the world about the Turkish Cypriot self-isolation, it will only make the Greek Cypriot diaspora wake up, respond and tell what is REALLY going on in Cyprus! Im the sure the average person knows that theivery and ethnic cleansing is a far greater crime the not permitting a football match which could have easily been played if Cetinkaya were not acting like facist-separatists.

[denizaksulu]

[quote="humanist"]Deniz, my stance is this neither community is innocent, neither community is guilty, both communities behaved innapropriately toward each other. Both communities suffered and are suffering to this day. Past history is just that and cannot be changed the future on the other hand can. If everyone on this forum concentrated on a better, hate, racist, fear, discrimination free future for our country we would be able to achieve it.I fail to understand how the constant rhashing of this black past that Cypritos have experieneced are going to hepl the Cypriot people in 2007. The cnstant rehashing of the old stuff has not changed the statues quo for the last 33 years. Unless we change our views and perceptions of each other toady we are going to be talking about this very same thing for another 33 years I will be 77 years of age. I was six in 74. For me that is not an achievement and nothing to be proud of. Like I said in a previous post. I cannot hold a 40 year old turkish cypriot man's child responsible for what his father and grandfather did to my fathers father and grandfather.[/quote]


You are right Humanist. If I may, a little anecdote, only because I would like to "point" a finger. I dont want the last word.In my village when I was at primary school , secondary school age, we, GC and TC boys would play marbles, lingiri, hunting ambelobullia doing he bongolsys thing (picking up left over carob pods from the trees. All this was done separately or together.After some of the GCs came back to the village during vacation terms I noticed a coldness towards us. These (only some) GC boys would not call on our house anymore. They would not even say hallo.Some even crossed to the other side of the road. I mentioned this to my grand parents and they found out that their teachers from Greece had "educated" them. This did not happen with the older GCs ofcourse, some of whom were related to us.

I can categorically say that we never had such training (anti-GC) in our Secondary or Lyce's. The point I am trying to make is that I (personal opinion) would put the blame on "outsiders".
Regards
DA

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

and I dont see how a mis-factual chronological list from whatever website, means that you 'rest your case'.

Am I supposed to be shocked because you can cut and paste on internet forums!?

[denizaksulu]

[quote="the_snake_and_the_crane"]and I dont see how a mis-factual chronological list from whatever website, means that you 'rest your case'.

Am I supposed to be shocked because you can cut and paste on internet forums!?[/quote]


If you bother to rise above ground level you might be more understanding to the realities of all these events Cypriots face. Your one sided diatribes just show you for what you really are. Ignorant.
Regards
DA

[humanist]

Deniz

I can categorically say that we never had such training (anti-GC) in our Secondary or Lyce's. The point I am trying to make is that I (personal opinion) would put the blame on "outsiders".

I really don't care who you blame, my only concern is that the blaming has gone on and on and on and nothing has changed we have some Cypriots isolated and some without their homes. To be that is just wrong we need to change our tune. We need to move on. 33 years is a long time to be stuck in the same place.

VP not buying your argument about the big fat NO. It was a referendum if the two sides agreed that would have been great they didn't. If the TC's no longer want unification that is fine, if they do that is even better. And need to let the Grek side know so they can start preparing appropriate plans. Perhaps it is up to the Greek speaking side to make some proposals. What happens if they do and your side gives a big fat NO. Working together might get us somewhere and hopefully to big fat YES.

The problem is they have givn alternatives and the TC's don't want to discuss the issues. That is right of return, two states with Federal government that overides the states, unified chamber of commerce, health system, social and cultural departments etc.