Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Alexandros; I agree with you that within both communities there are political leaders, politicians, chairmen of several NGOs and people that intentionally or unintentionally use such hurtful expressions which can be percepted as an insult and/or potential threat. Such behaviours indeed cause emotional violence, crisis of confidence and thus disorder of the unity.

Can you tell me how many articles written about this issue that point out this fatal mistake? So what percentage of people really care about it notwithstanding the violence emotionally it creates.


Is there any movers and shakers that warn about the detrimental effects and consequences of such insulting, provoking expressions? One might argue that this is the reality of life everywhere in the world. Well, however if there's no effective reaction against such disturbing and irritating expressions; physically uniting Cyprus woouldn't be adequate to unite her people.

The concequences of this fatal mistakes already are obviously seen. Majority of Cypriots have already been encouraged to focus upon their pecuniary interests. I'm afraid, in the end; this way of running of the events will lead us to "eat" each other to satisfy our pecuniary interests.

[magikthrill]

maybe its best if we keep this topic on discussing the proposed amendments because im still trying to understand it and would like to read what other people have to say. sorry im kinda slow

Another thing I don't like is the fact that Greece has to pay compensation (WTF, in the words of Ag. Amvrosios ) . Greece is poorer than Cyprus and thats after 25 years of mooching off the EU. HOw are we gonna pay compensation when we can't even pay our own debts?!

If this has anything to do with the fact that the Greek junta was the reason the invasion occurred, I think that's like blaming modern day Germany for Hitler. It doesn't make much sense.

[Piratis]

I mean if the EU would ever ot be come a federation then GCs could live freely anywhere in the EU except the northern part of their country????

Wouldn't it be better to agree on partition with TCs keeping 18%? Then we can trade populations. I am sure that many TCs will want to keep their RoC citizenship. So for each TC that keeps RoC citizenship a GC gets the TC country citizenship. Then the TC minority in RoC and the GC minority in TC country will have the exact same rights.

Later on, the TC country will enter the EU (something that they want) and our neighboring relationship will be better than what we would have with Annan plan or any modified Annan plan. We can work at the "other side", live in the "other side", do business in the "other side" etc.

Also in this way we are talking about the same number of refugees returning (since many would not choose to return if they had to be under TC admin), all of them would return under GC admin, and the compensation will be much faster and much more certain for those that will not return.
On the other hand, the TCs get their total independence, they get rid of the "GC domination", they can keep all the settlers that they love so much and bring even more, and they can keep in their state as many Turkish troops to "protect" them as they like.

It seems to me this kind of solution needs no more compromises from both sides than any other feasible solution, but it is much cleaner, without all the confusion and uncertainty.

Partition used to be unacceptable, today it seems to be just a taboo word, since we seem to be willing to accept it as long as we give a different name to it. So lets just do partition, call it partition, and in the end we will have something much more fair and united than any "unification" plan can provide today.

[-mikkie2-]

Insan,

How people react to such expressions is a measure of how developed as a society one becomes in my opinion. Its analogous to a child being teased and goes running back to mummy! We should be big enough to ignore these things. If we act as though we are treading on egg shells all the time then we will never actually get anywhere! If we are afraid of hurting someones feelings then the chances are we will not do anything! It means that we will stand still rather than progress.

I find that even minor things seem to create a massive, disproportionate response from people. Words like 'insulting' and 'traitor' are bandied around in every day vocabulary. These are very strong words and should be used sparingly, but unfortunately all Cypriots seem to exhibit this beaviour.

[magikthrill]

Partition used to be unacceptable, today it seems to be just a taboo word, since we seem to be willing to accept it as long as we give a different name to it. So lets just do partition, call it partition, and in the end we will have something much more fair and united than any "unification" plan can provide today.

I understand what you are sayign Piratis, but when discussing this with most GCs that I know they do not feel very comfortable. In the end, it will probably depend on how this solution is presented and juxtaposed to a modified Annan plan, as the one Alexandro is proposing (I put this last part to remain on topic )

As of now though most GCs are more willing to accept a plan that limits their right to settle in their country than such a plan. Also, since most of the refugees won't get compensation or their porperty back then they probably wouldn't vote for it.

[Piratis]

Also, since most of the refugees won't get compensation or their porperty back then they probably wouldn't vote for it.

Magic, actually in this way they will get compensation better than the "other" way. Thats one of the major pluses.

The only problem is what I said before. Partition is unacceptable to GCs, and they are trying to serve it to the people in an indirect way with a different name. We have to decide, is true unification possible? If yes, we keep trying for it. If no, we cut the crap and move to a clean partition that in the end will be the much more beneficial than any disguised one.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Another thing I don't like is the fact that Greece has to pay compensation (WTF, in the words of Ag. Amvrosios ) . Greece is poorer than Cyprus and thats after 25 years of mooching off the EU. HOw are we gonna pay compensation when we can't even pay our own debts?!

Hmm ... I see your point. The justification of it is indeed that the junta were involved in the partition, but the best way to see it is as a contribution to the finances of the new state of affairs. Greece would have helped anyway, it is just an official way of doing it. (The same arguments go for Turkey)

I don't know how much money would be involved, someone will have to do a calculation to see if it is too much or not. I don't think the "net-rent" would be too much, but "emotional damages" could be substantial.

One refinement of this proposal might be to say that "Greece and the GC state" will be responsible for compensation of TCs, and then we agree between ourselves how to share this burden. The GCs have been setting aside rent for TC property owners since the 70s anyway. On the Turkish side, I don't see the same thing happening (the TC state won't have the finances to bear it), so Turkey will have to bear all the compensation costs herself.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Also people, let's keep this thread for the discussion of this proposal, as Magikthrill says ...

Come on: Surely there must be more issues that you have to raise concerning the proposal, before we move back to "general chatter" mode ...

I see many TCs (I assume it is TCs) voting for the further development of the "Legal Status" aspect. Also I see many GCs (I assume it is GCs) voting for further development of the "Property" aspect. Would some of the people who voted for these two categories care to further elaborate their objections?

[-mikkie2-]

Alexandre,

My views on the property issue are based on the right of return of refugees if they so wish. Obvioulsy some arrangement must be put in place to deal with all the issues.

I find that the fundamental aspect is the status of settlers rather than TC's. If more settlers are repatriated then fewer properties will be in contention. Considering that the settlers, illegal workers, whatever you wish to call them, outnumber the TC's. It therfore stands to reason that if more settlers are repatriated then more property will be freed up.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Partition is unacceptable to GCs, and they are trying to serve it to the people in an indirect way with a different name. We have to decide, is true unification possible? If yes, we keep trying for it. If no, we cut the crap and move to a clean partition that in the end will be the much more beneficial than any disguised one.

Piratis,

"disguised partition" is my nightmare also ...

What my proposal attempts to do is to find a stable and workable middle ground between a Unitary State at the one end, and partition at the other end: In other words, a truly viable bizonal-bicommunal Federation.

The only way this could work, in my opinion, would be if substantial GCs returned to the north and substantial TCs moved to the south, then it would truly be one country, with a somewhat stronger "Turkish" accent in the north, and a somewhat stronger "Greek" accent in the south.

On the political level, what I strove to do was to ensure that Politics would tend towards integration, with GC politicians vying for TC votes and vice verca.

On the business level, I put "bicommunal business" as the main engine that would support the economic development of the north.

And finally on a social level, I allowed for voluntary integrated schooling, such as would help develop a pan-Cypriot identity.

Assuming that all these integrative dynamics eventually help us mature, then the Constitutional Assembly 20 years from now (if not that, then the one 20 years after that) could do away with racial distinctions, or even with Federation all together, if both GCs and TCs consider it better for all of us.

So, if you think I have failed to develop a proposal which is not disguised partition, please explain to me how it can be improved. But I am beginning to get the sense that, when we get down to the details of it, you are generally opposed to the concept of a bizonal-bicommunal Federation ...

P.S. I would also prefer a "clean partition" to a "disguised partition plan". But I think our country can do better than both of these ...